They definitely need to follow through with the offense overhaul. It’s PCC, Lebo, NA, and SV. SV will definitely be more modern. NA isn’t. Lebo is somewhere in the middle. PCC could be the other modern spread team, with best talent.
St. Joseph's Prep 2020 vs. _________
- Thread starter RoverNation05
- Start date
They definitely need to follow through with the offense overhaul. It’s PCC, Lebo, NA, and SV. SV will definitely be more modern. NA isn’t. Lebo is somewhere in the middle. PCC could be the other modern spread team, with best talent.
I agree with you. It's pcc to lose this year in 6a. How about some of the 5A schools like penntrafford, upper st Clair, and Penn hills? Who's going to be the top teams of 5a this year?
Wow- well, looking thru this thread- Rover would analyze better- but, I will offer a brief response-
Still kinda tough comparison, due to short season last year- this year Lebo had to win 15 games, 15-0 to win states. Last year, I think SJP was 6-0? And, this year, Lebo did easily beat "some" of the same kids, meaning they beat kids who were 11th grade at SJP last year. So, gotta be a close game, but still more talent last year from prep-
'20 SJP v 21 Lebo
I would put it at 27-17 win for SJP
Harrison scored 3 TD's in the Rose Bowl and was on that SJP team with a top 5 QB in the country. They would have had 42 points easy. I don't see anybody from Lebo being able to cover him.
Surprised there wasn't acknowledgement of Harrison until now!! Hellava game. Looks like a bright future!!
The "98" CB West team would beat any team in the last 25 years with maybe one exception the "20" SJP team. Massive line and big back attack would be too hard for anyone to stop. They would limit the offensive possessions of any other team. The "20" SJP team was by far the most explosive offense I've seen in the last 50 years.
I liked the McKeesport teams. Rugged in your face option with terrific speed, both sides. Emphasis on speed.
wilson8500, do you think the CBW teams could keep up with the quicker scoring teams of today, meaning the ability to trade points?
I agree with you new. I think pine Richland team is the best wpial team in the playoff era and that's saying a lot with this year's Lebo team and 2004 Pcc. I think that would be the game I'd like to see as well.
Stalker.... Great question Pettine's teams were extremely well coached. The 98 team was by far the biggest offensive line of his tenure, coupled with a bruiser RB/FB. The defense had size but not as big, although when they had to DC Carey inserted a bigger lineup. Just my opinion but from what I've seen the only team that would be that quick of a scoring team would be 2020 SJP. They would give any ground and pound team a problem. I would add that when Pettine wanted to he knew how to open up his offense, he very seldom had to with that team. And I alway thought that the pass was there (8 in the box), but I truly believed Pettine enjoyed running it down team's throats and breaking them. The 98 Bucks vs the 20 Hawks would be the time machine game I'd love to see.
I've watched SJP and like that 98 CBW I felt that the respective coaches didn't beat up on local teams as much as they could have. Why make your competition look bad or maybe they didn't want to embarrass a fellow coach.
Bottom line... would I bet the house on CBW winning? No! But a wise man wouldn't bet against them.
Question Stalker.. Did SJP ever face adversity and how do you think they would have responded to a team that took time off the clock on long drives?
About your question wilson; Most teams are stressed when behind if it's new reality for them. It's frustrating (and painful) to a D getting beat up on long drives. That frustration is often expressed in a hurried offense but sustained by a tired defense.
But I think SJP would respond positively based on their tradition of winning where it's simply expected....and great coaching/projected confidence throughout the staff that pervades all levels.
Interestingly, Lebo hit them with short super quick drives getting their first 3 scores.
Someone maybe pcc, tulla mentioned playing just 6 games and that's fair. That means you're calling them greatest at mid-season.
** I do think with health you'll be calling this present group one of their best ever when all is said and done.
The 2020 SJP team never had a close game. They were scheduled to play a very good team in Texas to start the season and then to play St. John's in DC as well as one of the North Jersey powers, but they all got cancelled because of Covid. The way they put away LaSalle may be the best available indication of how good they were and how good they would have been against difficult opposition.
A case could be made that the 2018 team was nearly as good as the 2020 team, especially at the end of the season. They won early close games against St. Peter's and Good Counsel after the opening game against St. Frances (Baltimore) was called off in the third quarter because of lightning--SF was ahead 13-7, but remember this was McCord's first start. Given how SJP came from behind in the next two games, it's not unreasonable to think they might have beaten SF. By the time the playoffs came, they were really ticking.
Then there was 2016. Some may think the closeness of the win against NP makes that Prep team inferior to the 2020 team, but the 2016 team was unbeaten over the course of a full season, handily beat Bosco, beat a good LaSalle team twice--the first time when Swift came back from an injury to score 7 TDs--and played great in the championship game against PCC. NP was very good that year and the fact that the Prep made the plays they needed to make late in the game suggested they had some intangibles as well as lots of talent.
Stalk, as you know CBW faced a loaded Cathedral Prep team in 2000 with speed and D1 talent all over the field. Typical West grounded out long drives and took time off the clock. Problem was Prep scored on big plays and the Tim Dance KO return was a backbreaker. Great game though, Prep won in OT 41-35.
Unfortunately, those days are over. Watching Pettine's team's over 3 decades were so much fun. Yes, I know Carey coached the 2000 team, but it just feels like the high school football I grew up with is just a memory now.
Same here relayer. Those days sure are over! And while it's easy to say "2000" (just rolls off the tongue) it's hard processing that the year 2000 was 21 years ago, weird as that sounds. Getting tired hearing myself say...."time flies".
Those 1999 and 2000 games were instant classics. I think that 99 season was the most stacked season with great teams in Pennsylvania. You had parkland, woodland hills, Erie prep, cb west all highly national ranked and that Bethlehem Catholic team was loaded as well. Everyone is big on the 98 bucks but they didn't play any good teams that year. Hard to measure them. Who did they beat? In Hershey they beat an average new castle team. Look what that 99 team had to go through.
Last edited:
My son played for the weight classed Lenape Valley Indians in Chalfont and one of his biggest thrills was to walk on the War Memorial field at halftime of a game with his team mates in their uniforms. The stands were always packed. Right during their run in the 90s. I look at him now and it's a lifetime ago!
I'd agree the '98 CB West squad had one of the "softest" paths to a 4A title, if that's possible. The best team on their schedule was probably the North Penn team coached by Pettine Jr. featuring Chris McKelvy and Hikee Johnson. There wasn't a great WPIAL team, New Castle won the WPIAL after a 6-3 regular seasonw where they finished third in their division. The really are the only true Cinderella team that's made it to Hershey. Cumberland Valley was #1 or #2 in the state all year, but they got throttled in the quarterfinal by Parkland - a Parkland team that was mostly sophomores and juniors, who upset undefeated and top 5 in the state Whitehall in the D11 tournament.
The flip side is, the personnel on the '98 Bucks is fantastic. It's on this thread somewhere else, but Picciotti plus Dave Edwards running behind three FCS offensive lineman and one that played in the ACC and was a 4 star kid is as good as rushing attack as you'll find in high school. They also had a ton of college guys on defense. It's in the top handful of starting lineups 1-22 we've seen in big school. Picciotti came back in '99, but Carber, both Wilsons, and Havener were gone on the offensive line, as was Edwards at running back/corner, and The '99 CB West team faced a tougher path with Becahi and ECP, but I don't think there's anybody would tell you '99 was better than '98 - Mike Pettine included.
That said, I think both SJP '20 and the 2004 Pittsburgh Central Catholic team are better. I recognize the shorten the game argument with Picciotti and the awesome offensive line. But '04 PCC held LeSean McCoy to 36 yards on 24 carries and he had offensive tackles who played at Michigan and Syracuse, a quarterback who played at Maryland, and a wide receiver who played at Pitt and in the NFL to help take the pressure off. And the game was 44-3. Sean Lee and Justin King got similarly smothered in the WPIAL tournament. I think they'd be able to get after Picciotti and co.
As for this year's Mount Lebanon vs. last year's SJP, give me the Hawks by three touchdowns. Who is covering Harrison Jr., Hagans, and Cooper with McCord throwing them the ball?
Which McKeesport team are you referring to Stalk - the 2005 one that beat Liberty or the 1994 one with Brandon Short that beat Downingtown? I don't think I'd put either on my "best of" list, though that '05 team with Travis McBride, Anthony Leonard, and Dan Kopolovich running the veer option was fun as hell. The Brandon Short team was kind of Brandon Short and the seven dwarves - one superstar lineman/linebacker and a fun scheme (the no huddle veer option) with guys who were a good high school team.
A couple quick hits Hausmann and Rover:
** I thought the 98 CB team was absolutely outstanding. The OL was scary good and Picciotti and Edwards were a unique/special tandem.
** People don't mention Picciotti's speed enough. Wow! He was fast.
** If you link up the teams Cathedral, New Castle, Parkland, CV, etc played you can get a good fix on them, regardless of regular season suggestions of an easier road to finals. Don't hesitate believing your eye test and to hell with sports columns saying otherwise. That....from a D3 guy with no horse in the race.
**About New Castle; They couldn't handle CB for sure but I think they were a lot better than an "average" team. Had a good power rating. Don't forget they were in it for the first time, won the Wpial (meant something back then) in some wars then came back to beat Cathedral in a tight one from deficit the game before CB.
** Cathedral may have been young vs NC but this is the same group that got to finals the following year losing to CB by 1 pt and winning it all the following year, meaning the team NC beat was good stuff and an impressive win.
Rover. I wouldn't put McKees in best list either. Just very impressed with them beating Dtown in 94. They were a fun, fast and physical group. The 05 group was good but got real lucky not having to face L. McCoy.
That cathedral prep team was all sophomores. I went to ever single Erie prep game in the 98, 99, and 2000. That 98 team wasn't near as good as the 99 or 2000 team. New Castle doesn't make it to a state championship any other year. They are in my opinion one of the worse big schools(AAAA/AAAAAA) to play in Hershey. Even the 98 north Penn team was a year away. I'm not saying the 98 cb west team wasn't great but they didn't play anyone so it's hard to measure just how great.
Last edited:
Agreed. Just reviewed the game vid (ECP-NC) again yesterday to see how talented the young group was and their great progress in subsequent years v CBW.
Will say it's hard measuring any of these teams. This is just a fun exercise.
You can get to suggestions and inferences and have a view, but it's kind of absurd definitively maintaining Team X from 2015 would beat Team Y from 1988. Fun reviewing the teams tho and getting into Rover's good research.
Agreed everyone knows it's absurd because you'll never know unless they actually play each other which will never happen but it's fun to debate who is the GOAT.
Giving some love to '95 Penn Hills..
The game has changed so much in the past 25-30 years..
If SJP were to be forced to play the style of the mid 90's vs '95 Penn Hills, I'd take PH all day. You were not going to block that front 7 that Penn Hills had. Even the great CB West OL's of the late 90's would take a seat to the talent that PH had on that squad. They could literally stop the best rushing attacks from a 2 high secondary. You rarely ever see that today and it was even more rare back then. Strader and Thompson could man up all day. They wouldn't be intimidated by any of the talent that SJP had. These kids grew up battling the Lavar Arrington's, Brandon Short's, etc. The talent in the Quad East back then was ridiculous.
Side note on Gibson. I don't remember him starting 48 consecutive games in college. He started as a true freshman in '96 but he wasn't a starter in '97. He started every game in '98 and '99 though. Jeff McCurley and Frank Moore started in '97 at DT.
If PH had to play the modern style of 1 back football, SJP probably has the advantage on paper. But, I would think Gordon would have been able to play a 2 platoon system. They had athletes in the program who could split out. They had a young Jake Schifino on that team and either Strader or Thompson could have split out. Would Lenny run a wild air raid type passing attack? I don't think so, but he would've been lethal in a zone read type spread.
Anyways.. Good conversation.
"If SJP were to be forced to play the style of the mid 90's vs '95 Penn Hills" .... But of course SJP, like all teams now, is forced--by reality!!!--to play the style of today.
This all reminds me of old conversations about what would happen if a contemporary MLB team played the '27 Yankees or if one of Lombardi's better Green Bay teams played one of the better Patriot teams of recent years--fun but essentially futile.
One thing for sure: the rules and, more important, how the rules are applied have changed so much that any team forced to play under the rules of a different era would be at a huge disadvantage.
I think SJP would still have won state title 90% of the time, had they gone with a traditional pro-style attack. SJP has been so good over the past 10-15 years, they could probably run whatever they want. They have the athletes to do so.
One team that should get more credit then they do and I think it because they weren't loaded with D1 talent is the 2006 upper st Clair team. The wpial was so strong that year and usc ran the table and pretty convincingly. They were a very strong high school football team and very disciplined. I think they don't get enough credit, are underrated, and could complete with any high school football team. Dane Conwell was as good as a high school running back as you'll find.
I just got done watching the 2003 st Joe's prep football game against la salle. Now i know everyone is big on the 2020 team and they both finished #3 in the USA today poll. Is everyone still convinced the 2020 team is thier best yet.
The Prep defense in 2003 was probably their best ever. I think they shut out Gilman (MD) and Brooklyn Poly scored once--and I think that was on a turnover. O'Hara, which had a running back who went on to Purdue, couldn't move the ball against them.
The game against LaSalle doesn't tell you a lot since LaSalle simply wasn't very good that year. (O'Hara was the 2nd best PCL team, still nowhere near SJP, as was evident in the championship.) For obvious reasons--mainly the Covid-shortened schedule SJP played in 2020--we'll never know how good last year's team would have been against very good competition. But I don't think PA has ever seen a passing game like SJP had in 2020.
I didn't start watching prep until they joined the piaa so I never realized how good that 2003 team was. I think that 2016 DeAndre Swift team that beat north Penn and thrashed central Catholic has to be put up there as well.
Brooks' teams at SJP at the start of this century were consistently good, but only the 2003 team went undefeated. Some people think that at the end of the season the 2001 team, which started out by losing three games, was the best. Others point to the 2005 team. The 2006 team, which got robbed by the officials on a trip to Don Bosco, lost very narrowly in Ohio to the eventual Ohio state champion, Hillard-Davison (sp?), and then lost in an utterly bizarre game to LaSalle in the PCL championship was actually the strongest team. Every once in a while I repost this video that highlights just how good the SJP quarterback, Chris Whitney, was that year:
Whitney led Villanova to a national championship in his senior year. Doesn't he remind you of Jerkovec in that clip?
The problem the Prep had in many of those years (2000, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2009) under Brooks was winning big games at the end of the season. Brooks was a very good coach in most areas of the game, but in my view (and that of some others) his particular kind of intensity put too much pressure on the team in games where there was already lots of pressure. Infante was also pretty intense but he didn't put that intensity directly onto the players.
As I remember, for some reason Rutgers withdrew their offer to Whitney. Big mistake. Whitney showed what he could do at Villanova--and it went way beyond his personal numbers. That said, as high school QBs, McCord was a better pure passer than Whitney. He routinely put the ball where only his receivers could catch it.
I take it that McCord will stay at Ohio State next year and assume that Stroud will go into the draft at the end of the year. That will likely give him the inside track on being the starter for two years. (The other two back-up QBs are transferring.) I would have preferred him going to another major program where he'd have a better chance of starting as a sophomore or even as a freshman, but maybe it'll all work out.
I would assume that the other two quarterbacks transferring out says a lot about how McCord looks in practice. I think he looked a little jittery in the one start he got this year, but you can see the talent. Day has shown he’s a pretty good developer of college talent - if Stroud has another year like last year, he goes, and McCord is in a great spot to be a multi-year starter.
it's always an interesting question to ponder, who is the best high school football team ever in PA but i really don't have an answer for it
there was definitely more overall talent in PA back in the 90's, but maybe the more sophisticated offenses they play today would close the talent gap? who knows?
there are holes in every team that is in the argument
CB West in 98 didn't play a great schedule, they looked great playing against New Castle who I think on paper is easily the worst WPIAL champ to make the title game in the highest classification, plenty of state champs would've mercy ruled them
Central Catholic in 2004 didn't look very dominant in the regular season and would've lost to Gateway in week 1 if Justin King didn't leave with cramps, if they lost that game I'm certain they wouldn't be in the argument and they struggled with Upper St. Clair in the semifinals, i don't recall Jim Render ever mentioning that team among his best teams he says 2006 was the best and that team had zero college players unless you want to count Dane Conwell's 10 minutes each at Indiana and Cal U of Pa
Pine Richland in 2017 beat a young St Joes team and that seems to be their claim to fame, i don't think they would've stopped Deandre Swift and St Joes if they played them the year before so i think they had timing on their side, are we sure they are better than 2014 runner up team?
St. Joes in 2020 I think has the best team on paper, but i don't think they faced any great teams and they didn't play full schedule but ifi'm forced to pick a team for best ever i think they would be my pick, if that's the best St Joes team ever as those around the program say it's hard to argue against them
there was definitely more overall talent in PA back in the 90's, but maybe the more sophisticated offenses they play today would close the talent gap? who knows?
there are holes in every team that is in the argument
CB West in 98 didn't play a great schedule, they looked great playing against New Castle who I think on paper is easily the worst WPIAL champ to make the title game in the highest classification, plenty of state champs would've mercy ruled them
Central Catholic in 2004 didn't look very dominant in the regular season and would've lost to Gateway in week 1 if Justin King didn't leave with cramps, if they lost that game I'm certain they wouldn't be in the argument and they struggled with Upper St. Clair in the semifinals, i don't recall Jim Render ever mentioning that team among his best teams he says 2006 was the best and that team had zero college players unless you want to count Dane Conwell's 10 minutes each at Indiana and Cal U of Pa
Pine Richland in 2017 beat a young St Joes team and that seems to be their claim to fame, i don't think they would've stopped Deandre Swift and St Joes if they played them the year before so i think they had timing on their side, are we sure they are better than 2014 runner up team?
St. Joes in 2020 I think has the best team on paper, but i don't think they faced any great teams and they didn't play full schedule but ifi'm forced to pick a team for best ever i think they would be my pick, if that's the best St Joes team ever as those around the program say it's hard to argue against them
I disagree that Pcc loses to gateway if king doesn't go out of that game and remember Pcc crushed them in the playoff rematch. The 2017 st Joe's prep team wasn't young either. They came in undefeated and the #8 team in the country and pine Richland handled them fairly easily. The following year 2018 was a young sjp team lead by the sophomore trio of McCord, Harrison, and trotter. The 2004 Pcc, 2017 pine Richland, and 2012 north Allegheny are in my opinion the best 3 wpial teams of the playoff era.
i think Gateway was leading in that game before King went out, he was having his way with them
I know Central won the rematch easily, my point is if they lost that week 1 game they probably would've been eliminated from the "best ever" conversation, they had several close games during the regular season
I could've sworn St Joes in 2017 had a lot of freshman and sophomores playing just like they did this past season