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Talks for separate playoffs

You should be a motivational speaker
lol i give people reality checks, if you have a counter argument i would love to hear it

I would tell the kids on my Ringgold Rams to give up and do something they have some talent for

football is a brutal sport even if you are good at it so why subject yourselves to beatings and humiliations and waste your time? it doesn't take a man to take a beating

wasn't it George Carlin that said something like if you are paying for a motivational speaker or self help book, you are a lost cause? I agree

Talks for separate playoffs

I have no idea whether SJP players work harder than players at school x, but can't we all agree that players at some schools, on average, work harder than players at other schools, that players at some schools practice smarter than players at other schools, and that some coaching staffs are better (and even more hard-working) than other coaching staffs?

This is not to deny that non-boundary schools have an important advantage over boundary schools, but a fixation on the boundary vs. non-boundary issue will leave out several other important factors.
many teams work hard

hard work is great but hard work doesn't create talent, you are born with that

height, speed, athleticism, strength, arm strength etc you got it or you don't... it's assigned to you at birth

no amount of hard work makes a kid with no talent a good player

what decade was the most enjoyable and interesting?

2005-2015, the last 10 years of the golden age of 4 classifications. You had the NA dynasty. This was also before SJP had a monopoly on the state

Most games are also finally in HD in this timeframe
aside from NA, what other reasons do you prefer this time period? what made 2005 - 2009 better than say 2000 - 2004?

what decade was the most enjoyable and interesting?

but seriously- I've "seen and lived" HS football from 1980 until 2024- 44 years so far!! The 80s and 90s were much better then the last 20 years, certainly in Western PA, imo
how were they better? is it nostalgia or are there reasons?

another reason the past 10 years weren't great is because the difference between the good teams and bad teams is greater than ever

a blowout used to be winning by 3 or 4 touchdowns, now a blowout is winning by 40 - 70 and it could be even worse than that as the bad teams are often down by 6 touchdowns before halftime

Aliquippa forced up again? PIAA wrong or right?

I’ve never heard non conference games called exhibition before. Maybe has something to do with LeDonne being a Quip.
haha no- exhibition was just my term- a sign of me being older than 30- i think i read it on snapface or instabook
I’ve never heard non conference games called exhibition before. Maybe has something to do with LeDonne being a Quip.

Talks for separate playoffs

tulla- agree and get it, but here's a point i have made- not just that "SJP playing in playoffs is unfair." The thing that lends to things being "kinda unfair" is -it seems pretty clear that "rules and acceptable practices" are very different in District 12 than maybe any other district in PIAA. That- I think could be kinda fixed- try to get all districts operate more consistently.
There are several things that make District 12 very different from every other district: the fact that all public schools can draw from the entire city (a big factor in Tep's success in football and basketball), the fact that most of the PCL schools (including LaSalle) are actually not in District 12, the presence of the six Inter-Ac schools, the ethnography of the district itself, the proximity of fairly densely populated parts of Jersey, etc.

Talks for separate playoffs

1. SJP drives it, no doubt. I thought for the last stretch of the 4 class system and into this era that it’s actually the old 3A where the public/private dynamics were most glaring - you essentially had a final four of ECP/Bishop McDevitt/Imhotep/Bethlehem or Central Catholic. But throwing on the fact that SJP has put together the most dominant 10 year run in the history of Pennsylvania football and it raises a level of salience in the discourse, particularly because they’re doing so in the crown jewel sport and classification in the PIAA. Since 2013 they’ve matched the number of state titles (mythical and playoff) won by Mike Pettine in 33 years at CB West. They’ve essentially done the late ‘70s Penn Hills run three times in a row. There is an element of, pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered.

2. I’ve argued in past hears that a smaller school classification school could beat the schools in the class ahead of it (I was adamant that 2010 ACC was the best team in the state). Does that mean that we should just go single class? On the flip side, I don’t think anybody who is sane is arguing Maddox Shaw was less of a state champ this year or somehow undeserving of a title because he won a different classification than Bo Bassett, who is the best kid in the country at the same weight (though if you want to discuss single class, see the next bullet point).

3. I think separate basketball playoffs would be more popular than separate football playoffs. I know that a separate wrestling team championship would be wildly popular (for a lot of reasons wrestling is way more out of control than football). I’m not as enmeshed in other team sports. I don’t think individual sports should even be separated by classification. There should be a track championship - it doesn’t matter if you’re at North Penn or Jenkintown, you can all run the same race competitively. That’s not the same as a football team. The best 145 pounder in the state can come from anywhere. That’s different than a team title, but I don’t think the PIAA will ever move in that direction.

I’ve been working on a wrestling history project that has made this kind of stand out recently, but there’s also been a tremendous bifurcation in how athletes are selecting into elite programs. Looking at, say, Blair Academy. 20 years ago, Blair was the best team in the country by a decent margin. They mostly had boarding students from New Jersey, Maryland, Pennsylvania, and some one offs (Mark Perry from Oklahoma). They won almost all of the time, but the best high school teams consistently had close, winnable matches with them. The elite public schools in hotbeds (Lehigh Valley schools, the big Minneapolis powers) could have a punchers chance in an up year when they got breaks and toss ups. The big time regular Catholic school programs (St. Ed’s, Walsh Jesuit) could bang with them every year.

Fast forward to current day. Blair and Wyoming Seminary don’t even wrestle duals anymore except against each other. Their lineups feature between 8-12 nationally ranked kids, who come board at those schools from all over the country. I count 8 states in Sem’s lineup and 7 in Blair’s. The vortex at those schools is so great, it’s just become a totally different game. And that’s trickled down. Pennsylvania has dominated by four private programs, two of which seemingly just came into existence in the last four years - one of which actually does have kids from North Carolina, Tennessee, Florida, and Virginia, not just stupid accusations like SJP gets. St. Edward dominance in Ohio has been comical since the ‘80s (36 state titles in 44 years) so there’s nothing new there. New Jersey went from the most balanced state in terms of talent distribution to a monopoly from Bergen Catholic and Delbarton. Malvern Prep went from non-existent to one of the ten best teams in America every year, that also can barely sniff Sem and Blair without boarding kids. They at least compete in National Preps, where they’re wrestling schools that have the same kind of drawing power (though they like to flex on all of the District 1 and 3 programs they get their kids from). It’s all the club-ification of the high school product, which kind of defeats the point of the high school product in the first place. It’s not just football, and it’s not just Pennsylvania.

Talks for separate playoffs

Rover makes a good point about how much the picture differs from sport to sport.

In football lots of extrinsic factors have altered the picture: the massive changes in college football that have resulted in 13-year olds getting offers, social media, ESPN (which is never going to be interested in showing a game between, say, Neshaminy and Pennsbury), the immense reduction in the number of Catholic elementary schools, the need for all private schools to market themselves in new ways, the substantial reduction (at least in many areas) of the number of kids playing football, the changing demographic profile of which kids are playing football and which kids are really focusing on football as their "ticket" to where they want to go, etc.

There are many things about the current era I don't like, but I know that's what people my age often say.
tulla- agree and get it, but here's a point i have made- not just that "SJP playing in playoffs is unfair." The thing that lends to things being "kinda unfair" is -it seems pretty clear that "rules and acceptable practices" are very different in District 12 than maybe any other district in PIAA. That- I think could be kinda fixed- try to get all districts operate more consistently.

Talks for separate playoffs

10 years of dominance in the highest classification with no end in sight, and the SJP fanboys are still pretending they just work harder and want it more LOL
I have no idea whether SJP players work harder than players at school x, but can't we all agree that players at some schools, on average, work harder than players at other schools, that players at some schools practice smarter than players at other schools, and that some coaching staffs are better (and even more hard-working) than other coaching staffs?

This is not to deny that non-boundary schools have an important advantage over boundary schools, but a fixation on the boundary vs. non-boundary issue will leave out several other important factors.
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Talks for separate playoffs

Rover makes a good point about how much the picture differs from sport to sport.

In football lots of extrinsic factors have altered the picture: the massive changes in college football that have resulted in 13-year olds getting offers, social media, ESPN (which is never going to be interested in showing a game between, say, Neshaminy and Pennsbury), the immense reduction in the number of Catholic elementary schools, the need for all private schools to market themselves in new ways, the substantial reduction (at least in many areas) of the number of kids playing football, the changing demographic profile of which kids are playing football and which kids are really focusing on football as their "ticket" to where they want to go, etc.

There are many things about the current era I don't like, but I know that's what people my age often say.
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Talks for separate playoffs

why do you think 2010 Allentown Central Catholic was the best?
They were the only team that could have hung half a hundred on Archbishop Wood, and beat the Noah Spence/Matt Johnson/Jamal Poteet McDevitt team in finals. Four star dual threat quarterback with three FCS receivers. McNeely brothers on the offensive line both started at FCS power New Hampshire and the other three were all PSAC guys, so they had the talent both with skill guys and big guys. Talented, well coached, and electric at quarterback.

And, somewhat on topic, nobody up here had ill will to that ACC team. It was pretty much the CYO team that came up together from Catholic grade schools on the west end of the Valley. They didn’t get transfers, even from 8th to 9th. It was a good group of kids that always played together. Now - ACC basketball of that era, let’s talk. But the football team was pretty classically high school football.
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Talks for separate playoffs

A few questions: how much of all this talk about separate playoffs in football would be happening if SJP weren't in the PIAA?

Does anyone doubt that if there were separate football playoffs for boundary and non-boundary schools that there would be lots of claims that boundary champion X might or would beat non-boundary champion Y?

Also, the PIAA is about much more than football. Would those who want separate playoffs for football also want separate playoffs for baseball, soccer, track, lacrosse, etc.?
1. SJP drives it, no doubt. I thought for the last stretch of the 4 class system and into this era that it’s actually the old 3A where the public/private dynamics were most glaring - you essentially had a final four of ECP/Bishop McDevitt/Imhotep/Bethlehem or Central Catholic. But throwing on the fact that SJP has put together the most dominant 10 year run in the history of Pennsylvania football and it raises a level of salience in the discourse, particularly because they’re doing so in the crown jewel sport and classification in the PIAA. Since 2013 they’ve matched the number of state titles (mythical and playoff) won by Mike Pettine in 33 years at CB West. They’ve essentially done the late ‘70s Penn Hills run three times in a row. There is an element of, pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered.

2. I’ve argued in past hears that a smaller school classification school could beat the schools in the class ahead of it (I was adamant that 2010 ACC was the best team in the state). Does that mean that we should just go single class? On the flip side, I don’t think anybody who is sane is arguing Maddox Shaw was less of a state champ this year or somehow undeserving of a title because he won a different classification than Bo Bassett, who is the best kid in the country at the same weight (though if you want to discuss single class, see the next bullet point).

3. I think separate basketball playoffs would be more popular than separate football playoffs. I know that a separate wrestling team championship would be wildly popular (for a lot of reasons wrestling is way more out of control than football). I’m not as enmeshed in other team sports. I don’t think individual sports should even be separated by classification. There should be a track championship - it doesn’t matter if you’re at North Penn or Jenkintown, you can all run the same race competitively. That’s not the same as a football team. The best 145 pounder in the state can come from anywhere. That’s different than a team title, but I don’t think the PIAA will ever move in that direction.

I’ve been working on a wrestling history project that has made this kind of stand out recently, but there’s also been a tremendous bifurcation in how athletes are selecting into elite programs. Looking at, say, Blair Academy. 20 years ago, Blair was the best team in the country by a decent margin. They mostly had boarding students from New Jersey, Maryland, Pennsylvania, and some one offs (Mark Perry from Oklahoma). They won almost all of the time, but the best high school teams consistently had close, winnable matches with them. The elite public schools in hotbeds (Lehigh Valley schools, the big Minneapolis powers) could have a punchers chance in an up year when they got breaks and toss ups. The big time regular Catholic school programs (St. Ed’s, Walsh Jesuit) could bang with them every year.

Fast forward to current day. Blair and Wyoming Seminary don’t even wrestle duals anymore except against each other. Their lineups feature between 8-12 nationally ranked kids, who come board at those schools from all over the country. I count 8 states in Sem’s lineup and 7 in Blair’s. The vortex at those schools is so great, it’s just become a totally different game. And that’s trickled down. Pennsylvania has dominated by four private programs, two of which seemingly just came into existence in the last four years - one of which actually does have kids from North Carolina, Tennessee, Florida, and Virginia, not just stupid accusations like SJP gets. St. Edward dominance in Ohio has been comical since the ‘80s (36 state titles in 44 years) so there’s nothing new there. New Jersey went from the most balanced state in terms of talent distribution to a monopoly from Bergen Catholic and Delbarton. Malvern Prep went from non-existent to one of the ten best teams in America every year, that also can barely sniff Sem and Blair without boarding kids. They at least compete in National Preps, where they’re wrestling schools that have the same kind of drawing power (though they like to flex on all of the District 1 and 3 programs they get their kids from). It’s all the club-ification of the high school product, which kind of defeats the point of the high school product in the first place. It’s not just football, and it’s not just Pennsylvania.

what decade was the most enjoyable and interesting?

looking back at the past, which decade would you say you enjoyed high school football the most?

for me I would say 2000 - 2009

we seemingly had a different champ every year at least in the highest classification, and it seemed there were multiple contenders across the state in most years, dynasties get old and boring unless your team is the dynasty

also we had a lot of high end prospects too, Terrelle Pryor was ranked the number 1 overall player in the country in 2007, it's more exciting to watch what is considered to be among the best in the country

I would say the worst decade was the past 10 years, the same private school champs along with "public" schools that clearly cheat almost every year, and there is definitely less talent in the state than there used to be

Talks for separate playoffs

It's true that SJP has many more transfers than it used to have. That seems to me more a result than a cause. From what I hear, some of the more prominent transfers have come to them rather than SJP going out to get them.

I hope SJP is clear-eyed about the risks of bringing in transfers. My biggest concern is that the transfer can fill a starting position a kid who's been part of the program for 2-3 years would have otherwise filled.
It's both, the kids will come in to play a national schedule and have a better chance of getting recognized but sjp will let those athletes know that that's the opportunity they will get. They will tell these 8th graders and top athletes in New Jersey, philly, ext... that we can put you on ESPN playing the top teams in the country with the top college coaches in the stands. Funny that sjp highest recruited player Anthony sacca, Roy Maxwell, and Cameron Smith are all new Jersey kids.

Talks for separate playoffs

ok here is a slightly different question- hoping someone will chime in- what is the general opinion of District 1- regarding D12 and the dominance of SJP and Imotep in sports? D1 also overlaps with the "whole metro area." Does D1 push for separate public / private playoffs in football? Thoughts?
There's the same grumbling in District 1 as there is in other parts of the state, for sure. (And there are plenty who shrug and say "it is what it is...) District 12, in terms of the private schools, is a bit misleading. More than half of the PCL schools actually are physically in District 1, as are 4/6 of the Inter-Ac schools. Certainly, there is going to be frustration when you're competing with that many schools for top players. With all that said, I know of no concerted effort by the D1 ADs or football coaches to make that push.
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