Beast of the East starts at 8:30 tomorrow morning. It is Easton’s first trip to Beast since the 1997-98 season - no champs for the Rovers in their only trip, with a then freshman Gino Fortebuono taking second at 112. Gino went on to win a state championship as a senior, then eschewed Division I wrestling to go to NYU film school. Not something you see everyday from nationally ranked kids. Interesting cat, I see his name in credits on Netflix all the time.

Pennsylvania obviously well represented at Beast with Easton, Northampton, Nazareth, Becahi, both Council Rocks, Downingtown West, Faith Christian, Germantown Academy, Gettysburg, the Haverford School, Kennett, Northern Lebanon, Norwin, Notre Dame, Radnor, Red Lion, Saucon Valley, Southern Lehigh, the Hill School, Thomas Jefferson, Whitehall, and Wyoming Seminary.

Lots of overlap with the Ironman field, but swap out all of the local Ohio schools at Ironman with local Jersey schools for Beast. lots of Virginia schools at Beast too (weird that Great Bridge isn’t a player in the team race, they were so good for so long, and have gone to Beast forever and been in the hunt a lot).

bucksftball said:

At some point I think they need to consider just having a home team / higher seed host some of these finals, if for no other reason to make the atmosphere state championship worthy. If the gym holds 1000, then 250 tickets are allocated to the visitors. There has to be a better way than these neutral sites that don't draw fans.

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They're going to have the home team hosting until quarters, and not having wrestlebacks for teams that don't make quarters - which makes perfect sense. But the tournament is too big, there aren't four District 1 teams or whatever that need to be competing for a state championship in duals or whatever it is. The early round match ups are largely a joke in this tournament. And absolutely nobody cares about taking 3rd in the state team tournament, I'd be fine if they eliminated wrestle-backs all together. What it's nice for is getting a couple extra matches against good competition for your best kids before the individual tournament series, but again, I think that can be sacrificed.

I don't want to come off as not liking duals - I think having a dual champion is the best thing wrestling can do, and I wish that the NCAA did the same thing. And the PIAA has been trying to figure them out. The original version (that Northampton coach Don Rohn boycotted by sending his JV team) was during the week before individual districts and totally messed with guys weights for the individual postseason and was dumb and hastiliy thought out. They pivoted off of that pretty quickly (again, one of the best teams in the country sending their JV team to the tournament made quite the statement). The version from 2000-2004 that made sense in the calendar and had the winner-take-all District 11 championship was magical for us. Northampton in 2000 and Easton in 2001 and 2002 were a cut above and won it pretty easily, but the 2003 and 2004 duals between those two were absolutely incredible. (now i'm just going down memory lane, feel free to stop reading).

For the uninitiated, in 2003, Northampton was #4 in the country, Easton was #5. The last Saturday of the regular season, Northampton beat Easton 31-29 by winning four of the last five matches of the dual. The following week, in the D11 finals, Easton turned the table and won 34-23, the catalyst being (current P'burg coach) Brad Gentzle, who lost to John Paukovitz by 15-0 tech fall in the second period, then beat Paukovitz in the D11 final, 7-5. Never seen a one week turnaround like that. Bryan Hart beat state champ Joey Ecklof two matches later and Easton rolled to the win, then ran away with the state championship the next weekend. In March, Northampton tied the record with four individual state champions, while Easton medaled seven at states and both teams were more than 30 points ahead of the field.

In 2004, they were #3 and #5 nationally. Once again, Northampton beat Easton 31-30 in the final week of the regular season. The following week, Easton won maybe the best dual I've ever seen, 29-25, highlighted by Sean Richmond (RIP) getting a match-up with arch-rival Billy Haydt (who finished 3rd and 4th in the state that year) and reversing Haydt in double overtime to win 3-1 and win the dual. That was one of three bouts that night that went to overtime, and Easton won all three. Again, Easton rolled to a state title again the next week. That March, Northampton set the PIAA state record for points in a tournament (132.5) and medalists (10), which included three champs, while Easton put three in finals.

All four of those duals had to be moved to Liberty High School (with it's 5,000 seat gym) to accommodate the crowds. It was pretty cool, one of the high points in Valley wrestling.

RoverNation05 said:

It stinks.

I recognize the problem - the Team States event is not a popular one with spectators, and the Hershey arena is way too big for it (and probably expensive to boot). So I get moving it to a smaller venue.

But Altoona is far from everything. I know nothing about their gym, I’m sure it’s nice. The pictures look nice. But you’ve moved the event further from most of the teams that show up to the event the most, which I think will dissipate attendance even further.

What I’ve come around on the last few years for state duals is this - I would like to go back to a single qualifier for each district and have just an 8 team state bracket. Yes, that means D11 getting both finalists wont happen even when they have the two best teams. And that’s good.

What I’ve decided I don’t like is when Nazareth and Becahi or Easton and Northampton wrestle the biggest match of the year with the biggest stakes in Hershey where the full Lehigh Valley fanbase is not going to travel. If the D11 championship is loser goes home, you rachet that event up through the roof, and you’re in the Valley where full fan bases are going to come out to Liberty/Freedom/PPL/wherever you want to host it. That could be my age showing, and the fact that the 2003 and 2004 Easton-Northampton matches in the D11 duals when both were in the top 5 in America are some of the best sporting events I’ve ever seen. To re-wrestle those in Hershey in a non-sold out gym would have been anticlimactic, even if it would have been the state final. I think that happened to Beca-Nazareth in 2017, which is one of the best duals ever, and would have been in the stratosphere if it was at Liberty in front of a full house instead of the Giant Center in front of everybody’s parents and some crazies like me who like team states and drive the couple hours. But what do I know.

Click to expand...

At some point I think they need to consider just having a home team / higher seed host some of these finals, if for no other reason to make the atmosphere state championship worthy. If the gym holds 1000, then 250 tickets are allocated to the visitors. There has to be a better way than these neutral sites that don't draw fans.

bucksftball said:

Thoughts on the change in venue for States?

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It stinks.

I recognize the problem - the Team States event is not a popular one with spectators, and the Hershey arena is way too big for it (and probably expensive to boot). So I get moving it to a smaller venue.

But Altoona is far from everything. I know nothing about their gym, I’m sure it’s nice. The pictures look nice. But you’ve moved the event further from most of the teams that show up to the event the most, which I think will dissipate attendance even further.

What I’ve come around on the last few years for state duals is this - I would like to go back to a single qualifier for each district and have just an 8 team state bracket. Yes, that means D11 getting both finalists wont happen even when they have the two best teams. And that’s good.

What I’ve decided I don’t like is when Nazareth and Becahi or Easton and Northampton wrestle the biggest match of the year with the biggest stakes in Hershey where the full Lehigh Valley fanbase is not going to travel. If the D11 championship is loser goes home, you rachet that event up through the roof, and you’re in the Valley where full fan bases are going to come out to Liberty/Freedom/PPL/wherever you want to host it. That could be my age showing, and the fact that the 2003 and 2004 Easton-Northampton matches in the D11 duals when both were in the top 5 in America are some of the best sporting events I’ve ever seen. To re-wrestle those in Hershey in a non-sold out gym would have been anticlimactic, even if it would have been the state final. I think that happened to Beca-Nazareth in 2017, which is one of the best duals ever, and would have been in the stratosphere if it was at Liberty in front of a full house instead of the Giant Center in front of everybody’s parents and some crazies like me who like team states and drive the couple hours. But what do I know.

Stalker said:

All of PCC's accolades melted away for me seeing the Harrisburg game where a young junior led team racked up 540 total yards (234R, 306P), 23 to 12 first downs to 243 tot ydg for PCC's vaulted (?) team; PCC stopping them with an endzone pick at the end. I thought it was an easy call SJP winning by 4 Tds as many others also called.
Against SJP, their shorter, quicker, more athletic DL made PCC look fat and slow which they weren't. That's simplistic but you know how it goes Bucks, if you get under the other guy.... more hustle, grit, heart.

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Absolutely, and that certainly raised eyebrows, especially since so many of their highly touted guys play defense. We've seen plenty of kids whose careers ended at their last HS game, or who went on to play D3 football, who have taken it to and outplayed guys with big offers. Sometimes it's scheme, sometimes it's player development and other times it's exactly what you said... one player seems to want it more.

Thoughts on the change in venue for States?

northalleghenytiger said:

How much does Harrisburg return? Are they the current favorite to make it out of the west? Just gotta figure out special teams

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Special Teams is the issue almost every year at Harrisburg. But personnel wise, they'll have to enter as a favorite to go far again in States, probably the final with most of their skill returning and eight starters/co-starters on defense. They were a year ahead of themselves in my view this year especially with the ineligibility of QB Shawn Lee who was 2256 passing at 67% (26/5) and 1451 rushing. Awesome stuff. By the way, I believe he'll be at Pitt. That loss sealed their fate or so I thought until discovering junior Jaiyon Lewis who threw for 2050 at 62% (19/9), rushing for 594. They learned of Lee's ineligibility I'm told a week before the LaSalle game. The moral was terrible and it was a blowout. It's a whole other world with Lee in there but hey, LaSalle kicked ass. Last year's team consisted of six juniors, three sophs and one frosh starting or in rotation
They went 11-3, 6-3 against nine winning teams, LaSalle 7-44, McDevitt 35-33ot, State College 7-6, CV 21-24, CD East 56-17; Playoffs Dallastown 42-6, Manheim Township 35-14, Wilson 42-14 before PCC 33-38. I didn't think they'd survive the opening three games of LS, McD, SC. I'll get back with more as can.

LaSalle opens up at PCC week 0. The game is being played Friday night at Woodland Hills.

northalleghenytiger said:

St. Joes will win the state championship next season. Lasalle gets too nervous in the playoffs

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I don't think LaSalle was particularly nervous in the playoff game against SJP this year. The first game was very close--obviously--and just about everyone who saw it thought SJP had the slight edge and should have won it at the end of overtime. The playoff game was almost as close, and one could easily argue that the main difference between the two games is that SJP's QB played a steadier game--something not surprising when a sophomore QB has a few more games under his belt. And historically--especially 2022, 2016, 2015 2012, 2009, 2006-- LaSalle has actually played better against SJP in the playoffs than in the regular season.

I see no reason why LaSalle shouldn't be at least co-favorites with SJP next year.

bucksftball said:

I think if LCHS can find a running back... this could easily swing their way as they are obviously almost on a par with SJP already.

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just gotta give it to the ones they have

bucksftball said:

Multiple D1 guys, NOT fat unathletic kids.

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They definitely aren't a bunch of slobs. They come off the bus as impressive as any group around.

bucksftball said:

A lot of WPIAL guys (and I'm not talking about just the usual twitter personalities) want to call the PCC o-line the best in the state, the LB corps the best in the state, their stud freshman athlete the top freshman in the state, etc...

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I think PCC's OL is very good. I never thought the LB corps was the best. I do think Gompers is a stud. The rest to me are FCS/PSAC at best types.

I think Lehmier and his group has not adjusted to coaching as an underdog. It's a different beast. It's comparable to the MMA fighter who never trains being on bottom because he's usually on top in his fights and then when he runs into a superior or evenly matched fighter, he looks like a fish out of water.

When I saw the way PCC's LB's were fitting vs the inside run, it told me a lot. It reminded me of the NA game from last year.

PCC's weakest position group imo is their DL. I know the Blatt kid gets some attention but I think as a whole, they don't impress.

BradlyPitt said:

i'm still waiting for my "narrative" to be proven wrong

so who do you think is the favorite? you going to bet money against SJP? no? see you feel the same as me

i don't think they cheat, i know they cheat or at least have advantages others don't

i'm not a fan of any team, i'm a fan of the game and the PCL is ruining it

what did you think of Lamar Stephens saying after Roman won a state title back in 2016 when asked what was the difference between that team and the team the year before that won the state title

"the difference was I wasn't on the team last year"

what did you think of that?

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That isn't true this year as mentioned by Tulla.
Prior years maybe so, but this last 2 years no.
Coming into this year I thought Roman would play them better. As you can see by Roman's run the team is much improved. Lasalle also came into the year with a better team. We all know what happened their first meeting with Prep. This upcoming year Prep will be without key guys. This is the year that will be similar to the year when they went down to ML. Roman and Lasalle will bring back more next year, including the PCL player of the year. I don't see them getting through the season without a few bumps.

bucksftball said:

I needed to watch this again and take a longer look at the PCC roster, to back up what I said pre-game which was that I didn't understand all of the gloom from Western PA guys that this was some sort of a mismatch athletically. PCC o-line averages around 6'4", 285, plus a TE who is 6'5", 250. Multiple D1 guys, NOT fat unathletic kids. PCC has 3 LBs plus their top edge defender who are all D1 guys, a couple so far being P4 players. At least three to four D1 skill players. A vaunted D-line. Yet, the 5'10" 230 pound nose tackle from SJP ate them up. SJP ran right through the LBs who like you point out, were often just plugging themselves into non-existent gaps and ending up out of position to make plays.

A lot of WPIAL guys (and I'm not talking about just the usual twitter personalities) want to call the PCC o-line the best in the state, the LB corps the best in the state, their stud freshman athlete the top freshman in the state, etc... then cry poor that they don't have the athletes to compete with SJP, even in a "down year" for SJP, plus having their two Ohio State commits standing on the sideline injured. WPIAL 6A might have been down this year, but PCC went through that group easily, so it's not like they struggled in a down year. They dominated them in a down year. This game was a goliath vs goliath, and one team looked ready to go and the other didn't.

Click to expand...

All of PCC's accolades melted away for me seeing the Harrisburg game where a young junior led team racked up 540 total yards (234R, 306P), 23 to 12 first downs to 243 tot ydg for PCC's vaulted (?) team; PCC stopping them with an endzone pick at the end. I thought it was an easy call SJP winning by 4 Tds as many others also called.
Against SJP, their shorter, quicker, more athletic DL made PCC look fat and slow which they weren't. That's simplistic but you know how it goes Bucks, if you get under the other guy.... more hustle, grit, heart.

tulla said:

Not much point in discussing a team with someone who, it seems, didn't bother to watch any of the team's games that were streamed this year.

No one who actually saw either of the SJP-LaSalle games this year and who looked at which players are returning next year would say SJP is a lock. And I don't pretend to know enough about any other 6A teams in the state next year to say none of them could be competitive with SJP.

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I think if LCHS can find a running back... this could easily swing their way as they are obviously almost on a par with SJP already.

new2pa said:

Watched this game. I didn’t think that SJP was overwhelmingly better “looking”. Particularly DL where it looked like they had a couple average joes playing.

On O the QB is a nice HS sophomore. OL was big and it seemed to me they won game on basic plays. Power and Inside Zone. PCC couldn’t fit them properly. Wrong gaps, not squeezing hard enough, etc.

On offense, PCC QB was a non factor - which continues a theme of QBs since that group went to SV. Cannot beat a team like SJP with no production from QB. End of story.

In the end, SJP probably had better players, but butter coaching made this a 35-6 game rather than a 21-14 game IMO.

Congrats to SJP and their staff. Again.

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I needed to watch this again and take a longer look at the PCC roster, to back up what I said pre-game which was that I didn't understand all of the gloom from Western PA guys that this was some sort of a mismatch athletically. PCC o-line averages around 6'4", 285, plus a TE who is 6'5", 250. Multiple D1 guys, NOT fat unathletic kids. PCC has 3 LBs plus their top edge defender who are all D1 guys, a couple so far being P4 players. At least three to four D1 skill players. A vaunted D-line. Yet, the 5'10" 230 pound nose tackle from SJP ate them up. SJP ran right through the LBs who like you point out, were often just plugging themselves into non-existent gaps and ending up out of position to make plays.

A lot of WPIAL guys (and I'm not talking about just the usual twitter personalities) want to call the PCC o-line the best in the state, the LB corps the best in the state, their stud freshman athlete the top freshman in the state, etc... then cry poor that they don't have the athletes to compete with SJP, even in a "down year" for SJP, plus having their two Ohio State commits standing on the sideline injured. WPIAL 6A might have been down this year, but PCC went through that group easily, so it's not like they struggled in a down year. They dominated them in a down year. This game was a goliath vs goliath, and one team looked ready to go and the other didn't.

bucksftball said:

Goettner gets the interim title removed and is officially the head coach at Wood.

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I hope he has a Majic wand.

Missed this the other day - William Allen beat Bethlehem Catholic 42-18 in their junior high match. Cupboard bare in Bethlehem? (Kidding)

bucksftball said:

Lasalle now adds one of the best soph LBs in the state, Zykee Scott, Penn State offer already.

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Sorry to hear, he'll have to commute and do homework next year.

Non-boundary include charter schools which are tuition free. Non-boundary schools are free to leave the PIAA; heck, I'd love to see the 5A and 6A boundary schools in SE PA jump ship. At least do something to put pressure on the currently ridiculous playoff structure.

File this as some change other than separate public / private playoffs.

It’s been close to two years since I last checked in on this board and probably at least 10 years since being a regular poster. I really wasn’t expecting too much to have changed, with most of the arguments about the unfair advantages of private over public schools and vice versa continuing more or less unchanged.

However, it was a little surprising to see how the two sides got new labels, “Boundary” and “No boundary” schools. Reminds me a little of how the “Pro-Choice” and “Pro-Life” labels help plead the cases of each group’s position. Although accurate as far as they go, those labels only capture half the picture. Better labels would be “Boundary / Tuition Free schools” and “No boundary / Tuition schools”.

The single focus on boundaries or no boundaries ignores many of the advantages of public schools, both financially (no tuition) and their huge advantages in facilities. It will never happen, but hypothetically (ignore disparate school tax issues across the state) the only way to truly equalize the differences between public and private schools is to:

(1) eliminate boundaries for every public school, giving public school parents and students the choice of where to attend and

(2) eliminate the tuition advantage of public schools, implementing school choice for private schools (adjusting to eliminate funding for religious education) so that parents’ tax dollars can be applied to the private school of their choice.

No boundaries and no tuition for all students statewide. What could be freer and more equal than that?

If in a one in a million chance both the boundaries and tuition advantages were implemented, it still might not produce the result the public-school fans would be hoping for.

• Many catholic families and students who previously could not afford tuition would switch back over to Catholic high schools (especially in Philly or other larger more urban areas), diluting talent in the public schools.
• The number of non-Catholic students attending Catholic high schools would increase (again especially in Philly or other larger more urban areas).
• Certain schools (both private and public) may become power houses in certain sports as success attracts more students from a particular sport.

If the PIAA playoffs are split between public (boundary/ tuition free) and private (no-boundary/tuition paying) schools why would the privates want to stay in the PIAA? I’d expect that the private schools could run their own version of the PIAA more efficiently than the current PIAA. Combining the PCL and the WPIAL would be a start.

Vikingofpittsburgh said:

Mike White was very rude to me when I asked an honest question. Suffice it to say I don't go on his chats anymore.

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he's very rude

my problem with that is he seems like a good guy on TV, he's clearly a fake

RCH13co18 said:

Tulla,
Don't feed into Brad. Every year he'll say SJP is the favorite to push his narrative. He thinks every team that wins cheats. He's a fan of a team from the west. Not sure which one yet.

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i'm still waiting for my "narrative" to be proven wrong

so who do you think is the favorite? you going to bet money against SJP? no? see you feel the same as me

i don't think they cheat, i know they cheat or at least have advantages others don't

i'm not a fan of any team, i'm a fan of the game and the PCL is ruining it

what did you think of Lamar Stephens saying after Roman won a state title back in 2016 when asked what was the difference between that team and the team the year before that won the state title

"the difference was I wasn't on the team last year"

what did you think of that?

tulla said:

Not much point in discussing a team with someone who, it seems, didn't bother to watch any of the team's games that were streamed this year.

No one who actually saw either of the SJP-LaSalle games this year and who looked at which players are returning next year would say SJP is a lock. And I don't pretend to know enough about any other 6A teams in the state next year to say none of them could be competitive with SJP.

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why do you always try to downgrade your favorite team?

it's ok to admit to being he best and gloat about it, i would respect your honesty

tulla said:

Not much point in discussing a team with someone who, it seems, didn't bother to watch any of the team's games that were streamed this year.

No one who actually saw either of the SJP-LaSalle games this year and who looked at which players are returning next year would say SJP is a lock. And I don't pretend to know enough about any other 6A teams in the state next year to say none of them could be competitive with SJP.

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Lasalle now adds one of the best soph LBs in the state, Zykee Scott, Penn State offer already. Probably won't be post season eligible though next year.

Relayer said:

That's another crazy finish in D11...and it's only mid December.

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The shame is, everybody doesn’t wrestle everybody.

Back in the day, the LVC/EPC used to split the wrestling conference essentially into “really good teams” and “everybody else”. So Nazareth-Northampton-Easton-Liberty-Parkland-Freedom always wrestled each other, then you rotated through the rest of the league every couple years. They’ve gone to a full rotating schedule, so Easton doesn’t wrestle Northampton this year, Nazareth doesn’t wrestle Becahi, and they all have too many duals against the Pocono Mountains of the world. Becahi and Easton dual on January 8th, and Notre Dame duals Becahi too, but those are the last big in conference duals left (obviously Easton-P’Burg is huge, but out of state).

Last year Easton used competition points to schedule Northampton non-conference. This year, the opted to add Beast of the East and Escape the Rock instead. I get the trade-off, and it’s probably better competitively to get ready for states (where they underperformed last year with a schedule skewed towards duals and away from tournaments). But I don’t love it, because Easton-Northampton wrestling was #2 on the Easton athletic calendar to Easton-P’Burg football for a long time. Feels weird.