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2015: Imhotep VS Central Catholic

I think we were talking about "best coaches" per era.

First. yes I would put Render as one of the best ever. Again, so tough- modern coaches bounce around, in some ways tougher, maybe just different. Def Yanessa in there, maybe Mucci from Jeannette, Palko for starters of greatest
 
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1981-1987: Art Walker Sr. (Mt. Lebanon)- won 4 championships and went to 5. (Father of Art Walker Jr.

1988-2006: Jim Render (Upper St. Clair)- won 5 championships.

1999-2009: George Novak (Woodland Hills)- won 4 championships

1997-2021: Bob Palko (West Allegheny, Mt. Lebanon)- won 9 Championships

2006-2020: Bill Cherpak (Thomas Jefferson) won 9 championships

2004-2022: Art Walker Jr. (Central Catholic, North Allegheny)- won 5 championships

2014-2020: Eric Kasperowicz (Pine-Richland)- won 4 championships
 
For starters,

WPIAL:
-----------
Pre-1988: ?
1988-2000: ?
2001-2010: PCC 2004
2011-2020: PR 2017
2021-2030:
1980s: 1987 North Hills (HM: 1981 Mt. Lebanon)

1990s: 1993 North Hills (HM: 1995 Penn hills)

2000s: 2004 Central Catholic (HM: 2007 Central Catholic)

2010s: 2017 Pine Richland (HM: 2012 North Allegheny, 2015 Central Catholic)

2020s: 2021 Mt. Lebanon *So far*
 
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So here's one of my favorite topics (which if I'm derailing, I'll just start my own thread): mythical state champions. At some point I'm going to write this as a series (maybe this summer, when I can also finish the big school champs from 2013 on) but I've put some real work into researching who can legimiately claim the "mythical" state titles in the era before the playoff. Here's what I've got (parenthesis are teams I'd hear arguments on):

1950: Butler
1951: Farrell
1952: Allentown (Aliquippa)
1953: Har-Brack (Donora)
1954: Bellwood-Antis
1955: Aliquippa (LaSalle)
1956: Jeannette
1957: Wilkinsburg (LaSalle)
1958: Easton (Central Dauphin)
1959: Lancaster (Chaleroi)

1960: Beaver Falls
1961: Monessen (Beaver Falls)
1962: John Harris
1963: Neshaminy (West Mifflin North)
1964: Pittsburgh Central Catholic (Neshaminy)
1965: Uniontown (John Harris)
1966: John Harris
1967: John Harris (New Castle)
1968: Easton
1969: Mount Carmel

1970: Mount Lebanon
1971: Neshaminy (Kiski Area)
1972: Gateway (Pennsbury/St. James)
1973: State College
1974: Pennsbury
1975: New Castle (Upper St. Clair)
1976: Penn Hills
1977: Penn Hills
1978: Penn Hills (Steelton-Highspire/CB West)
1979: Penn Hills (Dieruff - depending on how you feel about Penn Hills getting their title stripped)

1980: CB West
1981: Mount Lebanon
1982: Cumberland Valley (impossible year)
1983: Berwick
1984: CB West
1985: CB West
1986: Gateway (CB West)
1987: North Hills (CB West)

Based on what I've researched, I'd think Andy Urbanic, Lindy Lauro, and Pete Antimarino would be names to throw in the mix for WPIAL Mount Rushmores in their eras.
 
Parkland lost Noel Brouse in the D11 final that year to a separated shoulder - Brouse played left tackle on offense and defensive end on defense, 6'5 270ish kid, who was All State the next season and ended up playing on the offensive line at UConn. Obviously not to the level of Reid that year, but a state-caliber 2-way lineman who didn't play that game.

He, Cross, and Yeboah came back as seniors and were the All State kids on the 2015 that went to state finals.
Rover. Any thoughts on Parkland at this early date?
 
Rover -

I love your stuff and that list of "mythical" champs is great.

Although not on your compilation the '65 Redskins actually are the highest rated Saylor team ever at Langhorne with a .538 (the '71 team came in at .537). Of course, the Uniontown team of that season was a juggernaut and John Harris was in the midst of a strong run (that was when George Chaump was putting up a 58-4 run as I recall).

Still, in that year of 1965 the 'Skins topped off their five year undefeated streak and demolished everyone including Altoona, Johnson City (NY), La Salle and then the rest of the Big Six teams from your way (except for a tie with Dieruff which saw them 10-0-1 on the season). They also took out strong local clubs in Woodrow Wilson and Pennsbury when Lower Bucks was producing some very, very solid clubs across the board.

Interestingly, the 1963 team was the year of Bob Baxter. And as it was he personally dragged the Blue & Red along all year as he scored all their points in multiple games (he kicked extra points). He was a phenom (he went both ways, kicked and returned punts and kickoffs) and was all state and then a Parade high school all American before heading to Memphis State. He was also an all American down there (he was drafted by the Browns and went to the last cut when Collier told him if he'd go on the Taxi Squad they'd bring him up later - he declined).

Can't wait for your next write-ups (you and Stalk are machines).
 
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Good list and all but 2012 NA is the best team of 2010’s
I don’t have a problem with you thinking that. They score a record *63* points in the state final. That’s a solid trio in the 2010’s. I just think ‘17 Pine-Richlands offense is too strong to handle. Also you have to consider they are 1 of 2 teams from WPIAL to beat “The Prep”, and doing that is rare.
 
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So here's one of my favorite topics (which if I'm derailing, I'll just start my own thread): mythical state champions. At some point I'm going to write this as a series (maybe this summer, when I can also finish the big school champs from 2013 on) but I've put some real work into researching who can legimiately claim the "mythical" state titles in the era before the playoff. Here's what I've got (parenthesis are teams I'd hear arguments on):

1950: Butler
1951: Farrell
1952: Allentown (Aliquippa)
1953: Har-Brack (Donora)
1954: Bellwood-Antis
1955: Aliquippa (LaSalle)
1956: Jeannette
1957: Wilkinsburg (LaSalle)
1958: Easton (Central Dauphin)
1959: Lancaster (Chaleroi)

1960: Beaver Falls
1961: Monessen (Beaver Falls)
1962: John Harris
1963: Neshaminy (West Mifflin North)
1964: Pittsburgh Central Catholic (Neshaminy)
1965: Uniontown (John Harris)
1966: John Harris
1967: John Harris (New Castle)
1968: Easton
1969: Mount Carmel

1970: Mount Lebanon
1971: Neshaminy (Kiski Area)
1972: Gateway (Pennsbury/St. James)
1973: State College
1974: Pennsbury
1975: New Castle (Upper St. Clair)
1976: Penn Hills
1977: Penn Hills
1978: Penn Hills (Steelton-Highspire/CB West)
1979: Penn Hills (Dieruff - depending on how you feel about Penn Hills getting their title stripped)

1980: CB West
1981: Mount Lebanon
1982: Cumberland Valley (impossible year)
1983: Berwick
1984: CB West
1985: CB West
1986: Gateway (CB West)
1987: North Hills (CB West)

Based on what I've researched, I'd think Andy Urbanic, Lindy Lauro, and Pete Antimarino would be names to throw in the mix for WPIAL Mount Rushmores in their eras.
Yeah, this is awesome. Nice to see these teams not get lost to the endless March of time. It would be interesting to see the method of how you got these schools. I wouldn’t know where to begin. Maybe AVG points for and against relative to league mixed with # of college players?
 
Yeah, this is awesome. Nice to see these teams not get lost to the endless March of time. It would be interesting to see the method of how you got these schools. I wouldn’t know where to begin. Maybe AVG points for and against relative to league mixed with # of college players?
So using a newspapers.com archive, I could do some scouring for old state polls - which were kind of hit or miss year by year, but definitely existed in a couple different publications. Saylor Ratings also helped me look for what teams to look for. The AP used to also do a write up in early December that was essentially a round up of all the conferences in the state, so that all helped create a bit of a universe.

I tried to almost exclusively pick teams that went undefeated - so like as an example 1981, North Allegheny was clearly the best team in the state, but they got upset in the WPIAL finals. If it was a state playoff era, they'd be out, no matter how good they were - but they still got voted #1 in a lot of polls. So that's why, just for example, I went with Cumberland Valley, who went 11-0-1 and won D3. The only losses I didn't totally hold against schools were out of state - so the '79 Penn Hills team lost their opener to Archbishop Moeller in Ohio, who was a national superpower at the time, but they cleaned up in the WPIAL (though they famously had to forfeit their title for using an ineligible player - which I think got reinstated by the WPIAL a few years back?). But they were #1 in every state poll I saw. The '53 Allentown team lost to a tech school from Maryland that had kids up to 20 years old, but cleaned up all their in-state opponents. It got weird in spots where the best teams were in the WPIAL, in years where a tie in the championship game happened (which occurred a strangely high amount).

I haven't totally come up with a method to choose between some teams, hence having some multiple teams thrown in there - the 1965 season for instance, is razor thin, and actually produced a bunch of articles at the time about trying to separate Uniontown and John Harris. If I'm not mistaken, the Uniontown Saylor score is the highest one ever. When I actually sit down and write it, I'll have some level of methodology. But this is kind of back of the envelope - I actually hadn't looked at the document in a while.
 
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Rover -

I think you are correct about Uniontown '65 and the Saylor rating. I believe it was .569 with most years in the high .530s and low .540s usually signifying the best (it seems like there were times when the .520s would do it).

What was Harrisburg Tech rated - the team from back in the late teens? That one club (1919?) was unscored or gave up just one TD and scored something like 700 points or so playing a national schedule (they beat that team in Portland, Maine for the "national title" like 69-0). Right after WWI - the "Doughboy Squad".
 
Rover -

I think you are correct about Uniontown '65 and the Saylor rating. I believe it was .569 with most years in the high .530s and low .540s usually signifying the best (it seems like there were times when the .520s would do it).

What was Harrisburg Tech rated - the team from back in the late teens? That one club (1919?) was unscored or gave up just one TD and scored something like 700 points or so playing a national schedule (they beat that team in Portland, Maine for the "national title" like 69-0). Right after WWI - the "Doughboy Squad".
So I don’t know if you’ve played with the Saylor database, but you have to look schools up individually, so it’s tough to get full ratings year by year unless you really put in a ton of time.

I also don’t entirely love it because it’s totally proprietary, so I have no idea what math is under the hood. And in reading old interviews with Dr. Saylor, it sounds like criteria was pretty hazy - a lot of years he gives completely contradicting arguments for why one team is ahead of another when it’s close. I think, for instance, out of state teams were just not including in any calculations, so for a school like Easton, playing what were some very good Phillipsburg teams (and Thomas Jefferson in Brooklyn and Baltimore Polytech, who used to be on a lot of schedules in the 50s and 60s) counted as non-games in their Saylor scores. But it’s at least a consistent rating system through the years to kind of compare eras.

I’m sure he went back and applied the formula to Harrisburg Tech, and I know they had that big article on PA Football History a few years ago, but that just isn’t something I’ve dug into. I set 1950 kind of as an arbitrary starting point - post WWII makes the most sense to me (the only team from before that era that I’ve done any research on is the 1939 Easton team that led the Saylor Ratings for an in-house historical project with us). And even including the ‘50s is mostly to include the ‘58 Easton team that is still discussed reverentially around these parts - Ray Rissmiller, Pete Americus, Bill Houston, Terry Bartolet, Charley Weaver, the “point-a-minute” offense. That I’ve actually written and entry for and is a fun one I may post soon as a teaser because it’s the off-season and what else are we doing. But that’s a long and winding way of saying, I haven’t really looked at Harrisburg Tech other than what was posted a year or so ago, but I’m sure their Saylor score is through the roof.
 
Rover -

Yes, I have wondered about Saylor sometimes (I have heard he was a bit biased to the West even though he was really a Harrisburg guy as I understood it).

You can go back and get the ratings for each school and as far back as he goes (you can visit the Penn State site for that stuff and punch in the school and check it out).

Here's the link:


Here's the Harrisburg Tech link which has the 1919 squad with a .549:


The 1919 club posted a .549 which is getting up there, for sure.

Here's Easton:


Picking some selectively for Easton, some of their great teams include:

1939 - .531
1958 - .511
1959 - .513
1968 - .541

Interesting to say the least.

I recall that very tough 1968 team as I saw that game up in Easton (with Neshaminy - I was in 9th grade and Neshaminy was three years at the time). The Dawgs were beasts and I can see why they had that .541 number.

The 1958 team was undefeated and the 1959 guys had one loss (odd numbers).
 
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Rover -

Yes, I have wondered about Saylor sometimes (I have heard he was a bit biased to the West even though he was really a Harrisburg guy as I understood it).

You can go back and get the ratings for each school and as far back as he goes (you can visit the Penn State site for that stuff and punch in the school and check it out).

Here's the link:


Here's the Harrisburg Tech link which has the 1919 squad with a .549:


The 1919 club posted a .549 which is getting up there, for sure.

Here's Easton:


Picking some selectively for Easton, some of their great teams include:

1939 - .531
1958 - .511
1959 - .513
1968 - .541

Interesting to say the least.

I recall that very tough 1968 team as I saw that game up in Easton (with Neshaminy - I was in 9th grade and Neshaminy was three years at the time). The Dawgs were beasts and I can see why they had that .541 number.

The 1958 team was undefeated and the 1959 guys had one loss (odd numbers).
The 1959 teams loss was to Baltimore Tech, which played a lot of Lehigh Valley teams back in the day. They also had guys in their 20s on the football team in their Tech program, so those tended to be tough games to say the least. I think that game didn’t count in the Saylor rating because it was out of state. The ‘59 team did go on the road and beat Central Dauphin with Don Caum, who were higher rated in Saylor in ‘58, but in the UPI Poll Easton got the nod. That would have bumped their strength of schedule in the formula. They also were Neshaminy’s only loss, and beat up Thomas Jefferson from Brooklyn, which also wouldn’t have counted in their rating. That’s a really good team - Charley Weaver had the first 1,000 yard season, mostly running behind Ray Rissmiller, who ended up a first round NFL draft pick at tackle.

The ‘58 team’s big win was Old Forge, who was a coal region power in thr 50s. Easton actually scheduled the game during the season when both were undefeated and had the same off week, and Easton blew their doors off to get a lot of love in the poll rankings. That Easton team also beat Phillipsburg, who finished #3 in New Jersey, in a game that didn’t count towards their Saylor rating because it was out of state.

The 1968 team gets referenced a lot on here because of the “scholastic Super Bowl” against Pennsbury that was the 1 and 2 teams in the state, won in dramatic fashion by Easton. That game still holds Easton’s attendance record - something like 16,500. Our AP US history teacher used to teach a lesson on that game every year as part of a “history of Easton” mini-course that ran through the year. They also only played in state teams other than Phillipsburg in ‘68, so they have 9 of their 10 games count towards the formula. That also was the close of a 27-1-1 three year stretch where each team was rated over .500.

That ‘68 team was quarterbacked by Barry Snyder, who is probably the most quintessential Easton athletics figure ever - undefeated as a starting quarterback in 67 and 68, state finalist as a wrestler, wrestling captain at Penn State, 30 year wrestling assistant and freshman football coach at Easton, and his son was a state champion wrestler (Easton’s only father-son state finalists). That backfield had guys go to NC State, Maryland, Princeton, and Harvard - with the Maryland guy (Art Seymore) playing for the 49ers. It’s also funny, looking at old articles, fullback and All State linebacker Joe Parsons is listed as going to Ohio State (recruited by new OSU assistant George Chaump, who was cleaning up in Pennsylvania), but then at the last minute his mother sent him to Princeton, which was probably a better long term move if not a better football one.

The other team from the mythical champ era that was way up there was the ‘78 team, they went 10-0-1, with a weird tie against Emmaus in week 2. In the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette’s end of season poll they were #3 behind Penn Hills and CB West. They got a .520 rating by Saylor.
 
Great stuff, Rover.

As an aside, I was looking through that Harrisburg Tech stuff and they played schools in Iowa, Washington, DC, Maine, Maryland, New York, Ohio and West Virginia.

They got around!
 
Great stuff, Rover.

As an aside, I was looking through that Harrisburg Tech stuff and they played schools in Iowa, Washington, DC, Maine, Maryland, New York, Ohio and West Virginia.

They got around!
Remember when we and others did the 'Greatest Teams', showing teams back to the early 1900s. I have some of those files and guess (?) you do to. Mine are dated 2010, 2011.
 
Stalk -

I do remember when we were working up information and a site (PA State Champions -- I think I dropped the ball on that one!).

But we did dig down deep -- all the way back to 1885 or something. Plus we had like a list with maybe the Top Ten for each year. That was fun.

There's a fellow over on another site who's attempted something similar but not as many teams per years (I'll find it).
 
I was filing through maxpreps and looked upon the final year of the 4 classification format. 2015 is the year my team (PCC) won the state title in 4A. To say this team was loaded is putting it lightly. (Damar Hamlin was on this squad). However, I noticed they were ranked #2 in the state behind 3A champ Imhotep. This raised some questions from me:

How many times has the highest classification winner not been ranked #1 in the state?

Who do you think would have won in 2015 if PCC and Imhotep went head to head?

Did the coaching staff stunt what would have been potentially the greatest team of all time?
a 2 page thread and I didn't see anybody answer the thread title question, who would win?

i think it's a toss up, that Central team on paper is one of the most talented teams ever but they weren't overly impressive on the field, though I do think that was a strong year in the WPIAL

I think Central would win a very close game, but wouldn't be surprised if Imhotep beat them if they could actually play

back in 2011 many people argued that 3A champ Archbishop Wood was the best team in the state, they lost a close game to Central Catholic in week 1 but there is no doubt in my mind Wood would've won a rematch
 
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This game is where I started to see cracks in the coaching staff. I know St. Joes was very good, but that just simply can’t happen. 2019 also comes to mind. “Yinz” were missing QB and LB… and we couldn’t finish. Changes should have been made that offseason
nobody gave Central a chance to win that game, it was a miracle they kept it as close as they did

you can't fire a coach because he didn't win a state title as an underdog
 
I'm not one to compare teams from one decade to another but really liked the Upper St. Clair team of 2006 that went 16-0; one of Coach Render's finest and he had a few!
one of the worst teams to win the state in the highest class, he had better teams that didn't win the WPIAL

their best player couldn't get on the field at Cal U of Pa
 
Yes, that was a great team. I’m interested to see how Render is remembered on this board. Is he on the modern WPIAL Mount Rushmore? Palko and Cherpak are locks. The next 2 spots could be debated….

A few candidates:
Render (most wins in WPIAL)
Walker Jr. (Won state titles at 2 different schools)
Ledonne (^^)
Kasperowicz (built great program at PR, is trying to do the same at mars)
Render, Palko, Cherpak are locks

the 4th would be George Novak or Jack Mccurrey

Walker Jr's titles were with all star teams at Central or out of state transfers at NA so he is not even close to being considered

Ledonne? he has a long long way to go

Kasper? his legacy took a hit with PR winning without him, North Hills and Woodland Hills haven't been the same since Novak and Mccurrey left
 
1980s: 1987 North Hills (HM: 1981 Mt. Lebanon)

1990s: 1993 North Hills (HM: 1995 Penn hills)

2000s: 2004 Central Catholic (HM: 2007 Central Catholic)

2010s: 2017 Pine Richland (HM: 2012 North Allegheny, 2015 Central Catholic)

2020s: 2021 Mt. Lebanon *So far*
2020 Pine Richland > 2021 Lebo

I think Woodland Hills in 99 might have had the best team in the 90's
 
honestly, WTF is all the hubbub about 1999-2002 Woodland Hills coming from? i feel like they get ranked so highly just because they had Steve breaston, or they lost to a team that lost to CBW or something shallow like that. They shrunk as the lights got brighter

They were really good WPIAL teams, but none would be on a top 10 list of all time. I’d take 1990 NA, 1994 McKeesport, and 1995 Penn hills over them in the 90’s decade alone
 
a 2 page thread and I didn't see anybody answer the thread title question, who would win?

i think it's a toss up, that Central team on paper is one of the most talented teams ever but they weren't overly impressive on the field, though I do think that was a strong year in the WPIAL

I think Central would win a very close game, but wouldn't be surprised if Imhotep beat them if they could actually play

back in 2011 many people argued that 3A champ Archbishop Wood was the best team in the state, they lost a close game to Central Catholic in week 1 but there is no doubt in my mind Wood would've won a rematch
I saw that wood game and I remember the very controversial field goal ruled no good that would have given Wood the game. I still think it was good . That was a very good Wood squad.
 
one of the worst teams to win the state in the highest class, he had better teams that didn't win the WPIAL

their best player couldn't get on the field at Cal U of Pa
Why do you have such a hard on for Coach Render. It comes through in many of your entries on the topic. Weird personalizing things.
I saw them and was impressed and Rover did a detailed study on them worth reviewing; it's on the net. Had an awesome defense.
 
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BP- your last several posts- spot on!! I totally agree-

one post, i say PCC wins in 2015
next post i agree w your top 4/5 coaches, Ledonne and Kasper both good, just not enough years
last- debatable, very close, but yes i say 2020 PR>2021 Lebo

2020 Pine Richland > 2021 Lebo

I think Woodland Hills in 99 might have had the best team in the 90's
 
honestly, WTF is all the hubbub about 1999-2002 Woodland Hills coming from? i feel like they get ranked so highly just because they had Steve breaston, or they lost to a team that lost to CBW or something shallow like that. They shrunk as the lights got brighter

They were really good WPIAL teams, but none would be on a top 10 list of all time. I’d take 1990 NA, 1994 McKeesport, and 1995 Penn hills over them in the 90’s decade alone
they had several NFL players and D1 players so yeah I think they should be ranked high, i think that time period was very strong for PA across the state

competition matters it's too bad they didn't play Coatesville in the final, sorry but all those Woodland Hills teams were much better than the two your Tigers beat by 1 touchdown in the 2010 and 2012 final

they did shrink in 2000 against Mt. Lebanon and arguably in 2001 against Neshaminy, but Breaston got hurt and that field was a mud slide
 
I saw that wood game and I remember the very controversial field goal ruled no good that would have given Wood the game. I still think it was good . That was a very good Wood squad.
what the hell happened with that anyways? the sun was too bright and the ball was kicked so high the refs couldn't see where the ball went?
 
Why do you have such a hard on for Coach Render. It comes through in many of your entries on the topic. Weird personalizing things.
I saw them and was impressed and Rover did a detailed study on them worth reviewing; it's on the net. Had an awesome defense.
all I said was many guys I talked to didn't like him and didn't think he was a great coach

a better question would be why do you have a literal hard on for him and feel the need to get defensive for him? would he defend you if I criticized you?????

i said he belongs on the WPIAL Mt. Rushmore so isn't that being nice enough to him? his resume says he belongs

i saw that 2006 team play several times, good team not a great team, you can't deny their roster is very unimpressive for a state title team
 
all I said was many guys I talked to didn't like him and didn't think he was a great coach

a better question would be why do you have a literal hard on for him and feel the need to get defensive for him? would he defend you if I criticized you?????

i said he belongs on the WPIAL Mt. Rushmore so isn't that being nice enough to him? his resume says he belongs

i saw that 2006 team play several times, good team not a great team, you can't deny their roster is very unimpressive for a state title team
Asking why you seem to have a thing for him isn't being defensive of him; it's asking you a question, regardless of the topic. I thought it was odd mentioning in multiple post that his players....as you put it...."didn't think he was a great coach". How absurd knowing his record.

USC's roster for a title team was in fact impressive in personnel. Most PA title teams don't send boatloads to FBS schools. That would be judging them as tho they're St. Joe's, Bergen, etc which they and most PA schools are not.
At least 8 went on to play at other schools, FBS, FCS, Div-2-3. Call it semantics if you need to but most of us call a title team in any state 'great'. If you played football you know it takes greatness to go 16-0, especially in the WPIAL that was then still strong.
 
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they had several NFL players and D1 players so yeah I think they should be ranked high, i think that time period was very strong for PA across the state

competition matters it's too bad they didn't play Coatesville in the final, sorry but all those Woodland Hills teams were much better than the two your Tigers beat by 1 touchdown in the 2010 and 2012 final

they did shrink in 2000 against Mt. Lebanon and arguably in 2001 against Neshaminy, but Breaston got hurt and that field was a mud slide
I’m sorry to “burst your bubble”, but anytime those Woody high teams would go up against teams that actually had a disciplined defense, they would crumble. They could run all over cupcakes, but when they went up against teams that were competent (2000 Lebo, 2001 Neshaminy, 2002 parkland), they score a whopping 32 points across 3 games.

This would not go over well if any of those woody high teams played 2012 NA. Check the numbers… 140 points allowed over 16 games. Avg 8.75 points against per game. Arguably the greatest defense in WPIAL history

Also, as the old saying goes: “the best ability is availability” it’s unfortunate, but injuries do affect greatness
 
Didn't the 1987 North Hills defense allow zero points.
Yeah they are number #1 but they did play at a time that favored Defense. I was thinking that during the 2010’s, spread offense made scoring points easier, which made 2012 NA so impressive
 
Asking why you seem to have a thing for him isn't being defensive of him; it's asking you a question, regardless of the topic. I thought it was odd mentioning in multiple post that his players....as you put it...."didn't think he was a great coach". How absurd knowing his record.

USC's roster for a title team was in fact impressive in personnel. Most PA title teams don't send boatloads to FBS schools. That would be judging them as tho they're St. Joe's, Bergen, etc which they and most PA schools are not.
At least 8 went on to play at other schools, FBS, FCS, Div-2-3. Call it semantics if you need to but most of us call a title team in any state 'great'. If you played football you know it takes greatness to go 16-0, especially in the WPIAL that was then still strong.
I’d add on that the # of D1 players really doesn’t give you the full picture. Obviously they help, but you also need coaching and good roll players. For example, take the Pine-Richland/Imhotep state championship. Imhotep had the clear advantage in high level college guys, but Pine was clearly the better team.
 
Didn't the 1987 North Hills defense allow zero points.
New - yes zero. They were number one in the USA top 25. Not sure what other team in Pa managed close to that for the years end final high school ranking. I know first hand playing them twice that year that they had it all, a great mix of talent, toughness and were extremely disciplined. They had top end players in Renkey who I believe was Gatorade player of the year, Cisar safety/ te , a multi year starter both went to penn state , Gorajewski started multi years at line for Pitt, Carey now their coach to James Madison but had larger d1 offers, much better player than a coach for sure, bender twins, one went to Georgia tech, cohen unsung linebacker next to Renkey, blew his knee out in playoffs and ended up at Moorhead state, qb/db Morris to Harvard, Duane Hitchcock went d1 at running back to again I think Georgia tech, Brian kagle Lineman to James Madison, two little shit outside backers in Sam spade and Dave Hellon who were tacking machines but small , worked well in their defense sceme. Add a 3 back eat the clock no pass, run it down your throat offense that was efficient. Tj Schmidt, Carey, Hitchcock snd Morris all had similar yard totals s end of season, balanced like southern Columbia type of shit. Line was pretty big for that era, bigger then most. In champ game at 3 rivers they threw the ball for 2 touch downs. Had to, was close for a bit, maybe 7-0 at half and a late score at that. They could pass but didn’t want to or need to most the year until the end, then did it well. I know I am missing a couple more kids who went on to play d1 or lower d1 , d1aa back then…
My two cents
 
I’m sorry to “burst your bubble”, but anytime those Woody high teams would go up against teams that actually had a disciplined defense, they would crumble. They could run all over cupcakes, but when they went up against teams that were competent (2000 Lebo, 2001 Neshaminy, 2002 parkland), they score a whopping 32 points across 3 games.

This would not go over well if any of those woody high teams played 2012 NA. Check the numbers… 140 points allowed over 16 games. Avg 8.75 points against per game. Arguably the greatest defense in WPIAL history

Also, as the old saying goes: “the best ability is availability” it’s unfortunate, but injuries do affect greatness
wow... tiger, ugh, no one can make a statement like that- 140 points? Best defense ever in the wpial?? no way, sorry- i recall many schools in the 80s that allowed 30, 40, 50 total points, and there is the NH that allowed zero? Wow- i am gonna do a quick search.... 2 minutes- just last yr, 6 wpial teams allowed less than 140

wpial has been around for 100 years, 50 years ago may have been the best HS football in the friggin country... we gotta show respect for our history
 
Asking why you seem to have a thing for him isn't being defensive of him; it's asking you a question, regardless of the topic. I thought it was odd mentioning in multiple post that his players....as you put it...."didn't think he was a great coach". How absurd knowing his record.

USC's roster for a title team was in fact impressive in personnel. Most PA title teams don't send boatloads to FBS schools. That would be judging them as tho they're St. Joe's, Bergen, etc which they and most PA schools are not.
At least 8 went on to play at other schools, FBS, FCS, Div-2-3. Call it semantics if you need to but most of us call a title team in any state 'great'. If you played football you know it takes greatness to go 16-0, especially in the WPIAL that was then still strong.
I just told you what they told me, don't shoot the messenger

USC played for a WPIAL title last year so maybe the kids in that district are just good athletes and Render isn't some miracle worker

i will have to disagree with you on them being one of the better teams to win a state title in the highest class, I think they were lucky Central Catholic was upset by Penn Hills in the semifinals

Render said Penn Hills was the best team they played, well they were young that year and expected to be better in the future but they didn't really come close to winning a WPIAL title in the next years even with Aaron Donald and other D1 kids so I think 2006 was a down year

with better coaching I think Central is back to back state champs in 2006 - 2007
 
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