Talks for separate playoffs
- Thread starter DripDrop
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Please stop with the idea that St. Joe's recruits from all fifty states. It's basically New Jersey. I remember the North Alleghany coach putting out a video of how La Salle was an all star team and that it wasn't a fair fight. NA beat La Salle. Imagine that. I don't know who was being interviewed but saying he would not play? Friggin cry baby!!
yes- too many / too much cry-baby comments
BUT- SJP plays a "partly national schedule" and they work to get "national status and national rankings" so that is just about the same thing as "recruiting nationally"
BUT- SJP plays a "partly national schedule" and they work to get "national status and national rankings" so that is just about the same thing as "recruiting nationally"
I see your point but "until" they get someone from New York, Maryland, Delaware, Virginia, California, Nevada or Texas can we just keep it to New Jersey??
For the 7th or 8th time on here, I'll state that SJP has never had players from Maryland and NY, despite what the one guy on the video says, and has had two or three players from Delaware in the last 20 years or so--only one of whom (Ware, a good player but not a star) was a starter on the varsity team. And, yes, they have many players from Jersey, as they have always had.
What's interesting is how often the "they get players from four states" claim gets made--most often by people from western PA.
lol- gotcha- but for the record- the "complainers from western PA" do not represent "all of western Pa."
It wouldn't be an issue if they weren't competing in the piaa playoffs. They got huge advantages other schools don't have. The wpial cracks down on transfers unlike a lot of the schools out east ie st joes prep & Imhotep.
The multiple state argument dilutes the issue since it allows the non-boundaries to focus on correcting people. Avoid the multiple state trap. The issue is not multiple states, it's pulling from a top 5 metro population to build a high school football team competing against boundary teams from defined school districts.
Not on the private schools ala PCC etc. same deal. The Prep has always had players from Jersey always. nothing has changed with them except they got better and folks dont like it.TOO BAD. This gets tiresome.
here's it is crazy!! This shows the giant distance of all sjp athletes. They should have a football team but no way should this be allowed to participate in the playoffs. Imhotep is the same thing.
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Here is just some of sjp big transfers. Mcglynn LB transfer 24
Cameron Smith LB transfer 25
Mcconnel LB transfer 25
That’s three from the same position.
Stewart OL transfer 25
Towns OL transfer 24
Sholder K transfer 24
Dyches RB transfer 24
Willie DB transfer 24
For the record, this is just in response to anyone who thinks they will be down because they graduate a million seniors.
Cameron Smith LB transfer 25
Mcconnel LB transfer 25
That’s three from the same position.
Stewart OL transfer 25
Towns OL transfer 24
Sholder K transfer 24
Dyches RB transfer 24
Willie DB transfer 24
For the record, this is just in response to anyone who thinks they will be down because they graduate a million seniors.
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Just some of the "big" transfers? McGlynn came after freshman year. I don't think McConnell has started a game yet. Dyches was the #4 or #5 running back. Not sure if Willie started every game as a senior. What are the other "big" transfers if these are just some of them?
A few questions: how much of all this talk about separate playoffs in football would be happening if SJP weren't in the PIAA?
Does anyone doubt that if there were separate football playoffs for boundary and non-boundary schools that there would be lots of claims that boundary champion X might or would beat non-boundary champion Y?
Also, the PIAA is about much more than football. Would those who want separate playoffs for football also want separate playoffs for baseball, soccer, track, lacrosse, etc.?
Didn't stewart except a scholarship to Maryland. You skipped over him. Towns is a d1 player as well and Cameron Smith is a 4 star recruit and one of the best players in the state so yes some giant transfers. Look them up on 247. Name me another school last year with that many high profile transfers.
It's true that SJP has many more transfers than it used to have. That seems to me more a result than a cause. From what I hear, some of the more prominent transfers have come to them rather than SJP going out to get them.
I hope SJP is clear-eyed about the risks of bringing in transfers. My biggest concern is that the transfer can fill a starting position a kid who's been part of the program for 2-3 years would have otherwise filled.
Agree - it is tiresome. I'm shocked that the large non-boundary ADs haven't taken a stand as of yet. All non-boundaries should be separated from teams from defined school districts in the playoffs. SJP and Imhotep are pulling from a top 5 metro area in the country to build a roster, while boundary schools have a defined geographically boundary to pull from.
For comparison sake, it would be like U of Alabama pulling from all 50 states, while U of Georgia could only pull from Georgia.
ok here is a slightly different question- hoping someone will chime in- what is the general opinion of District 1- regarding D12 and the dominance of SJP and Imotep in sports? D1 also overlaps with the "whole metro area." Does D1 push for separate public / private playoffs in football? Thoughts?
There's the same grumbling in District 1 as there is in other parts of the state, for sure. (And there are plenty who shrug and say "it is what it is...) District 12, in terms of the private schools, is a bit misleading. More than half of the PCL schools actually are physically in District 1, as are 4/6 of the Inter-Ac schools. Certainly, there is going to be frustration when you're competing with that many schools for top players. With all that said, I know of no concerted effort by the D1 ADs or football coaches to make that push.
It's both, the kids will come in to play a national schedule and have a better chance of getting recognized but sjp will let those athletes know that that's the opportunity they will get. They will tell these 8th graders and top athletes in New Jersey, philly, ext... that we can put you on ESPN playing the top teams in the country with the top college coaches in the stands. Funny that sjp highest recruited player Anthony sacca, Roy Maxwell, and Cameron Smith are all new Jersey kids.
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10 years of dominance in the highest classification with no end in sight, and the SJP fanboys are still pretending they just work harder and want it more LOL
1. SJP drives it, no doubt. I thought for the last stretch of the 4 class system and into this era that it’s actually the old 3A where the public/private dynamics were most glaring - you essentially had a final four of ECP/Bishop McDevitt/Imhotep/Bethlehem or Central Catholic. But throwing on the fact that SJP has put together the most dominant 10 year run in the history of Pennsylvania football and it raises a level of salience in the discourse, particularly because they’re doing so in the crown jewel sport and classification in the PIAA. Since 2013 they’ve matched the number of state titles (mythical and playoff) won by Mike Pettine in 33 years at CB West. They’ve essentially done the late ‘70s Penn Hills run three times in a row. There is an element of, pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered.
2. I’ve argued in past hears that a smaller school classification school could beat the schools in the class ahead of it (I was adamant that 2010 ACC was the best team in the state). Does that mean that we should just go single class? On the flip side, I don’t think anybody who is sane is arguing Maddox Shaw was less of a state champ this year or somehow undeserving of a title because he won a different classification than Bo Bassett, who is the best kid in the country at the same weight (though if you want to discuss single class, see the next bullet point).
3. I think separate basketball playoffs would be more popular than separate football playoffs. I know that a separate wrestling team championship would be wildly popular (for a lot of reasons wrestling is way more out of control than football). I’m not as enmeshed in other team sports. I don’t think individual sports should even be separated by classification. There should be a track championship - it doesn’t matter if you’re at North Penn or Jenkintown, you can all run the same race competitively. That’s not the same as a football team. The best 145 pounder in the state can come from anywhere. That’s different than a team title, but I don’t think the PIAA will ever move in that direction.
I’ve been working on a wrestling history project that has made this kind of stand out recently, but there’s also been a tremendous bifurcation in how athletes are selecting into elite programs. Looking at, say, Blair Academy. 20 years ago, Blair was the best team in the country by a decent margin. They mostly had boarding students from New Jersey, Maryland, Pennsylvania, and some one offs (Mark Perry from Oklahoma). They won almost all of the time, but the best high school teams consistently had close, winnable matches with them. The elite public schools in hotbeds (Lehigh Valley schools, the big Minneapolis powers) could have a punchers chance in an up year when they got breaks and toss ups. The big time regular Catholic school programs (St. Ed’s, Walsh Jesuit) could bang with them every year.
Fast forward to current day. Blair and Wyoming Seminary don’t even wrestle duals anymore except against each other. Their lineups feature between 8-12 nationally ranked kids, who come board at those schools from all over the country. I count 8 states in Sem’s lineup and 7 in Blair’s. The vortex at those schools is so great, it’s just become a totally different game. And that’s trickled down. Pennsylvania has dominated by four private programs, two of which seemingly just came into existence in the last four years - one of which actually does have kids from North Carolina, Tennessee, Florida, and Virginia, not just stupid accusations like SJP gets. St. Edward dominance in Ohio has been comical since the ‘80s (36 state titles in 44 years) so there’s nothing new there. New Jersey went from the most balanced state in terms of talent distribution to a monopoly from Bergen Catholic and Delbarton. Malvern Prep went from non-existent to one of the ten best teams in America every year, that also can barely sniff Sem and Blair without boarding kids. They at least compete in National Preps, where they’re wrestling schools that have the same kind of drawing power (though they like to flex on all of the District 1 and 3 programs they get their kids from). It’s all the club-ification of the high school product, which kind of defeats the point of the high school product in the first place. It’s not just football, and it’s not just Pennsylvania.
They were the only team that could have hung half a hundred on Archbishop Wood, and beat the Noah Spence/Matt Johnson/Jamal Poteet McDevitt team in finals. Four star dual threat quarterback with three FCS receivers. McNeely brothers on the offensive line both started at FCS power New Hampshire and the other three were all PSAC guys, so they had the talent both with skill guys and big guys. Talented, well coached, and electric at quarterback.
And, somewhat on topic, nobody up here had ill will to that ACC team. It was pretty much the CYO team that came up together from Catholic grade schools on the west end of the Valley. They didn’t get transfers, even from 8th to 9th. It was a good group of kids that always played together. Now - ACC basketball of that era, let’s talk. But the football team was pretty classically high school football.
Rover makes a good point about how much the picture differs from sport to sport.
In football lots of extrinsic factors have altered the picture: the massive changes in college football that have resulted in 13-year olds getting offers, social media, ESPN (which is never going to be interested in showing a game between, say, Neshaminy and Pennsbury), the immense reduction in the number of Catholic elementary schools, the need for all private schools to market themselves in new ways, the substantial reduction (at least in many areas) of the number of kids playing football, the changing demographic profile of which kids are playing football and which kids are really focusing on football as their "ticket" to where they want to go, etc.
There are many things about the current era I don't like, but I know that's what people my age often say.
In football lots of extrinsic factors have altered the picture: the massive changes in college football that have resulted in 13-year olds getting offers, social media, ESPN (which is never going to be interested in showing a game between, say, Neshaminy and Pennsbury), the immense reduction in the number of Catholic elementary schools, the need for all private schools to market themselves in new ways, the substantial reduction (at least in many areas) of the number of kids playing football, the changing demographic profile of which kids are playing football and which kids are really focusing on football as their "ticket" to where they want to go, etc.
There are many things about the current era I don't like, but I know that's what people my age often say.
I have no idea whether SJP players work harder than players at school x, but can't we all agree that players at some schools, on average, work harder than players at other schools, that players at some schools practice smarter than players at other schools, and that some coaching staffs are better (and even more hard-working) than other coaching staffs?
This is not to deny that non-boundary schools have an important advantage over boundary schools, but a fixation on the boundary vs. non-boundary issue will leave out several other important factors.
tulla- agree and get it, but here's a point i have made- not just that "SJP playing in playoffs is unfair." The thing that lends to things being "kinda unfair" is -it seems pretty clear that "rules and acceptable practices" are very different in District 12 than maybe any other district in PIAA. That- I think could be kinda fixed- try to get all districts operate more consistently.
There are several things that make District 12 very different from every other district: the fact that all public schools can draw from the entire city (a big factor in Tep's success in football and basketball), the fact that most of the PCL schools (including LaSalle) are actually not in District 12, the presence of the six Inter-Ac schools, the ethnography of the district itself, the proximity of fairly densely populated parts of Jersey, etc.
many teams work hard
hard work is great but hard work doesn't create talent, you are born with that
height, speed, athleticism, strength, arm strength etc you got it or you don't... it's assigned to you at birth
no amount of hard work makes a kid with no talent a good player
lol i give people reality checks, if you have a counter argument i would love to hear it
I would tell the kids on my Ringgold Rams to give up and do something they have some talent for
football is a brutal sport even if you are good at it so why subject yourselves to beatings and humiliations and waste your time? it doesn't take a man to take a beating
wasn't it George Carlin that said something like if you are paying for a motivational speaker or self help book, you are a lost cause? I agree
there are thousands of kids in PA, right now, who prob were "not very good" when they were 10 or 11, worked their buts off and became a starter in HS (aka good for high school), then they graduate, and never play again, it happens all the time
yes but these kids still had talent that you can't teach like speed or height, or even toughness
some kids can learn to get good catching a football, blocking, tackling etc
and some kids you can give them the best coaching in the world, and they will still move like they have two left feet
we aren't created equal
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