Non-boundary schools dominate "big school" Championships. Time to have separate playoffs- or some other CHANGE

[2020sports]

Wow. For many years, I've thought- everyone needs to stop complaining- if public schools cannot beat private- get better! But maybe- now- all 3 bigger levels- 4A, 5A, and 6A DOMINATED by non-boundary schools following DIFFERENT RULES than 90% of the other public schools in PA? Things gotta change. 5 of the finalists are/were non-boundary.

4A- Thomas Jefferson a "typical, but very good public school" from D7, has been a Western PA powerhouse- got beat in semi- then that team got dominated by the Bonner school? Thats crazy
5A- both non-boundary?? Pine-Richland kinda got dominated by McDevitt- and some say Roman might dominate McD? Thats friggin crazy. I just did a quick search- 5A has never seen both finalists being private
6A- both non-boundary!! And Central might get dominated by a SJP that is "not as good as other recent teams?" That's crazy.

I don't see this trend changing, esp among the "bigger schools."

If the PIAA is not "allowed" to have separate playoffs, then they need to do something, to "even up the rules." Maybe stop suspending coaches for recruiting, or stop ruling players ineligible for transferring.

 

[northalleghenytiger]

According to sources (me), PIAA football landscape will look radically different in 5 years

 

[RoverNation05]

Wow. For many years, I've thought- everyone needs to stop complaining- if public schools cannot beat private- get better! But maybe- now- all 3 bigger levels- 4A, 5A, and 6A DOMINATED by non-boundary schools following DIFFERENT RULES than 90% of the other public schools in PA? Things gotta change. 5 of the finalists are/were non-boundary.

4A- Thomas Jefferson a "typical, but very good public school" from D7, has been a Western PA powerhouse- got beat in semi- then that team got dominated by the Bonner school? Thats crazy
5A- both non-boundary?? Pine-Richland kinda got dominated by McDevitt- and some say Roman might dominate McD? Thats friggin crazy. I just did a quick search- 5A has never seen both finalists being private
6A- both non-boundary!! And Central might get dominated by a SJP that is "not as good as other recent teams?" That's crazy.

I don't see this trend changing, esp among the "bigger schools."

If the PIAA is not "allowed" to have separate playoffs, then they need to do something, to "even up the rules." Maybe stop suspending coaches for recruiting, or stop ruling players ineligible for transferring.

FYI -there was a stretch where there were no private schools in 5A. Just a quirk of statewide enrollment.

 

[2020sports]

FYI -there was a stretch where there were no private schools in 5A. Just a quirk of statewide enrollment.

no i think that trend is not because of enrollment- it's because of the competitive balance process- teams playing in the most championships, getting the most transfers are moved up to 4/5/6 level. Imotep, and McDevitt are perfect examples.

this is part of the reason for my post- imo, this trend is only gonna continue- and even worse for 6A.... nowhere to get "pushed up to"

 

[RoverNation05]

no i think that trend is not because of enrollment- it's because of the competitive balance process- teams playing in the most championships, getting the most transfers are moved up to 4/5/6 level. Imotep, and McDevitt are perfect examples.

this is part of the reason for my post- imo, this trend is only gonna continue- and even worse for 6A.... nowhere to get "pushed up to"

I was thinking about Roman and some of the other PCL schools that have moved down, but your point is well taken.

 

[BradlyPitt]

2020 good to see you have finally realized this

you would've many years ago if not for your favorite team Pine Richland getting SJP in somewhat of a "down" year in 2017 and if PR didn't move down to 5A in 2020 avoiding maybe the best SJP team

otherwise your favorite team would've been the biggest victim of private schools

 

[RoverNation05]

From our friends in Ohio. Sounds familiar?

16-30 for 112 and 1 TD. Liberty beat Moe 28-14. Always nice to see a public school smack down the illegally recruiting private schools.

Week before Liberty beat 3-time defending champ St. Edward in semis. Liberty is one of 4 high schools in Olentangy district. They have 10 square miles to draw from. Meanwhile Moeller draws from all of east and north Cincy.

Week before Liberty beat 3-time defending champ St. Edward in semis. Liberty is one of 4 high schools in Olentangy district. They have 10 square miles to draw from. Meanwhile Moeller draws from all of east and north Cincy.

I'm well aware. Grew up in Cincy but have lived in Columbus most of my adult life, and I'm 53. And Moe draws from all of Cincy. And sometimes kids' parents move from Northern Kentucky or Southeast Indiana just across the Ohio border so they can attend Moeller. Happens pretty often. I'm very glad Liberty won the last two week.

 

[2020sports]

From our friends in Ohio. Sounds familiar?


Week before Liberty beat 3-time defending champ St. Edward in semis. Liberty is one of 4 high schools in Olentangy district. They have 10 square miles to draw from. Meanwhile Moeller draws from all of east and north Cincy.


I'm well aware. Grew up in Cincy but have lived in Columbus most of my adult life, and I'm 53. And Moe draws from all of Cincy. And sometimes kids' parents move from Northern Kentucky or Southeast Indiana just across the Ohio border so they can attend Moeller. Happens pretty often. I'm very glad Liberty won the last two week.

hmm- that's interesting- families in Ohio need to live in the state to play for an Ohio team? That might a one small rule change for PA?

 

[tulla]

hmm- that's interesting- families in Ohio need to live in the state to play for an Ohio team? That might a one small rule change for PA?

Maybe also worth noting that St. Edward's lost not only to Liberty but to (I think) THREE other public school teams in Ohio this year.

 

[2020sports]

2020 good to see you have finally realized this

you would've many years ago if not for your favorite team Pine Richland getting SJP in somewhat of a "down" year in 2017 and if PR didn't move down to 5A in 2020 avoiding maybe the best SJP team

otherwise your favorite team would've been the biggest victim of private schools

A bigger public / boundary school has very little chance to ever win a title. 80% of HSs in PA have minimal funding and resources, and they have to follow "stricter rules"

my comments are not just about "my team winning." 5 years ago, this was a big topic for 6A. Now this is affecting 3 levels-- 4, 5 and 6.

 

[D1 Transplant]

hmm- that's interesting- families in Ohio need to live in the state to play for an Ohio team? That might a one small rule change for PA?

Trust me, that wouldn't stop St Joe's from getting players from New Jersey. A lot of Prep alumni living in Pa would suddenly have a bunch of relatives they never knew they had living with them.

 

[tulla]

Trust me, that wouldn't stop St Joe's from getting players from New Jersey. A lot of Prep alumni living in Pa would suddenly have a bunch of relatives they never knew they had living with them.

How about trusting someone who knows about SJP? I know for certain that if the PIAA added that rule, the PCL would say good-bye to the PIAA. (Note that SJP is not the only PCL school with students from Jersey.) May members of many Prep teams live in Jersey because roughly 25% of its students live in Jersey.

 

[roxychknpoxy]

Trust me, that wouldn't stop St Joe's from getting players from New Jersey. A lot of Prep alumni living in Pa would suddenly have a bunch of relatives they never knew they had living with them.

lol … SJP could care less, 80+ years with students from NJ (25%+) … don’t need to hide it or create some BS conspiracy theory … and I’ll finally say this, I ran in to a PIAA board member this time last year, very random and coincidental, I said ‘I gues this is Prep’s swan song for football’, he referenced a court ruling from 1973 that prohibits PIAA from removing any members that were added … time will tell and either way SJP will adapt and adjust just like it has since 1851

 

[RoverNation05]

Tulla and our PCL bretheren - hypothetical for you. Wyoming Seminary is one of the best wrestling teams in the country (has consistently been #1 or #2 nationally . It is a high school/boarding school up north of Wilkes-Barre that has taken boarding students for it's entire history. It is currently grandfathered in to the National Preps tournament in wrestling (which is older than the PIAA) where preps schools like Sem, Blair Academy, St. Christopher's (VA), the Inter-Ac schools, and a host of private/boarding schools up and down the east coast compete, so they don't belong to the PIAA in wrestling, though they do in other sports.

There are obvious downsides to their situation. To go to Sem, you have to move away from your family and live on campus, or live close enough to be a day student. It is prohibitively expensive, about $63,000 a year for boarding students. Families and students make major lifestyle sacrifices to go here. The academics are no joke, and many elite wrestlers who otherwise would like to go there could not handle them. Here is the geographic make-up of their starting lineup (with their individual national rankings, just as an FYI).

Wyoming Seminary
107: #18 Tunkhannock, PA (presumably a day student?)
114: Virginia
121: #13 South Carolina
127: #5 Bethlehem, PA
133: #5 Massachusetts
139: Wisconsin
145: Rhode Island
152: Wyoming, PA (presumably a day student?)
160: #4 Florida
172: West Chester, PA
189: Florida
215: #1 New Hampshire
285: Ohio

If they are no longer grandfathered into National Preps, is this a team that makes sense to be a part of the PIAA and. compete for state championships?

 

[aerogenes]

The situation in the PIAA is insane. It's absolutely nuts to allow certain schools to assemble regional all-star teams with students from anywhere... and then force other schools to play them while following strict boundary rules. Other states separate the two categories and it's criminal the PIAA doesn't do it.

 

[tulla]

The situation in the PIAA is insane. It's absolutely nuts to allow certain schools to assemble regional all-star teams with students from anywhere... and then force other schools to play them while following strict boundary rules. Other states separate the two categories and it's criminal the PIAA doesn't do it.

Insane, nuts, and criminal--all at the same time?

Some states separate boundary and non-boundary (e.g. NJ) and some states don't (e.g. OH and FL).

With respect to regional all-star teams, you'd have to say in relation to Philly that SJP is far from the only school that has good players from across the Philly area. LaSalle, Roman, Bonner, Malvern, Haverford, Ryan, and IMHOTEP (in relation to the city boundaries) are all out there doing similar if not the same things--as are several schools in south Jersey.

 

[northalleghenytiger]

What’s the deal with the “inter-acedemic” football league. Are they just 6 teams who don’t participate in playoffs?

 

[tulla]

Tulla and our PCL bretheren - hypothetical for you. Wyoming Seminary is one of the best wrestling teams in the country (has consistently been #1 or #2 nationally . It is a high school/boarding school up north of Wilkes-Barre that has taken boarding students for it's entire history. It is currently grandfathered in to the National Preps tournament in wrestling (which is older than the PIAA) where preps schools like Sem, Blair Academy, St. Christopher's (VA), the Inter-Ac schools, and a host of private/boarding schools up and down the east coast compete, so they don't belong to the PIAA in wrestling, though they do in other sports.

There are obvious downsides to their situation. To go to Sem, you have to move away from your family and live on campus, or live close enough to be a day student. It is prohibitively expensive, about $63,000 a year for boarding students. Families and students make major lifestyle sacrifices to go here. The academics are no joke, and many elite wrestlers who otherwise would like to go there could not handle them. Here is the geographic make-up of their starting lineup (with their individual national rankings, just as an FYI).

Wyoming Seminary
107: #18 Tunkhannock, PA (presumably a day student?)
114: Virginia
121: #13 South Carolina
127: #5 Bethlehem, PA
133: #5 Massachusetts
139: Wisconsin
145: Rhode Island
152: Wyoming, PA (presumably a day student?)
160: #4 Florida
172: West Chester, PA
189: Florida
215: #1 New Hampshire
285: Ohio

If they are no longer grandfathered into National Preps, is this a team that makes sense to be a part of the PIAA and. compete for state championships?

Rover, I see the boarding issue as a big one. Not only does it allow WS to draw from a far greater geographical area than SJP can draw from but it also does away with the difficulty--some might say "disadvantage"--associated by long commutes. (Not that the commuting disadvantage negates the major advantage of being able to draw from the whole Delaware Valley.) So, no, I don't think it makes sense for the WS wrestling team to be part of the PIAA.

I'm not an absolutist when it comes to SJP (or the PCL or all the non-boundary schools) and the PIAA. Wanting separate boundary and non-boundary classifications is a a very defensible position. But I think people who hold it should recognize that it would come with many problems. You mentioned that IMHOTEP should be in a non-boundary class, but that would seem to require that it leave the Philly Public League, at least for some sports. And I really wonder if placing schools like Lansdale Catholic, ACC, Notre Dame, Holy Redeemer, PJPII, etc. in a non-public classification and playoff pool really makes sense given the local rivalries and the league configurations that exist. Any new system will have some benefits but also some costs, including to some schools and kids--just as the current system has benefits and costs.

Looking back from 2024, especially if you focus on the the largest school classification, it may seem the PCL has been dominant almost throughout, but if you start in 2008 and move forward year by year a much more nuanced picture emerges, one that reveals a lot more than accusations that SJP was cheating or acting in a criminal way. The world was changing in ways that benefited SJP's football program.

And I've got to say that the focus on recruiting tends to obscure other factors. For instance, everyone agrees that LaSalle was much improved this year over last year. (I would say that was true especially for the defense though Gordon in very much an offense guy. His DC must be very good.) The reality is that nearly all the LaSalle players were recruited by the previous coach, so the big improvement could not be the result of Gordon's recruiting abilities. But many people seem to think nearly all of SJP's success is due to recruiting--as if the coaches (many of whom have been there for 15 years) are just putting talented guys on the field and waiting for the mercy rule to be applied.

I agree that in the last seven years having only one competitive game in the 6A final (2021), one competitive semi-final game in which SJP played (2019), one competitive quarter final between SJP and a D 11 team (2021), and no competitive D 12 final does not make for a healthy situation. I think the situation will change more than a little in the next seven years even without a structural change, but if the people in charge want to change the system in a major way they should look before they leap.

 

[tulla]

What’s the deal with the “inter-acedemic” football league. Are they just 6 teams who don’t participate in playoffs?

The InterAc is a group of six private, generally quite expensive schools located mainly in very wealthy parts of Philly and its western suburbs. As the title suggests, they see themselves as academically very selective schools. Some had or have a religious connection--one (Malvern) is Catholic, one (Episcopal) is (surprise, surprise) Episcopalian, and one or two others have a Quaker tradition. Some Germantown, Episcopal, and Malvern) have had very high-profile basketball teams, and some have had had strong football teams, sending a few players to big-time college programs and, at least in a couple of cases, ultimately to the NFL.

All the schools, I believe, allow five years of hs eligibility, something that would conflict with PIAA rules. But, really, what mainly keeps them out of the PIAA is their desire to stand apart from the plebs.

 

[D1 Transplant]

Here are the rules the PIAA has on recruiting-

The Pennsylvania Interscholastic Athletic Association (PIAA) has strict rules against athletic recruiting that are intended to protect student-athletes and maintain competitive equity

• • Definition
    Recruiting is considered to be materially motivated by athletics if a school or its representatives:
    • Seek out athletes to attend the school
      
      
    • Promote the school's athletic program or personnel
      
      
    • Give preferential treatment to prospective athlete enrollees
      
      
  We all know, and it's well established that non-boundary schools actively recruit football players from all over Philly, and it's suburbs, as well as Jersey. The question, is why nothing is getting done about it. I know I'll get negative feedback from the non-boundary folks about recruiting, but I go back a few years ago (2017) to when I worked with a gentlemen who's son was, at that time, a starting running back at LaSalle, I asked him "did LaSalle recruit your son?" Him, "absolutely", I asked him "are you paying tuition?" Him, "yes, but there are athletes who don't pay anything." He then said, "what LaSalle does pales in comparison to what Wood and Prep does." That last quote may be a rivalry thing, but he offered a lot of other info to prove his points that I won't go into.
  • 
    
    

 

[northalleghenytiger]

The InterAc is a group of six private, generally quite expensive schools located mainly in very wealthy parts of Philly and its western suburbs. As the title suggests, they see themselves as academically very selective schools. Some had or have a religious connection--one (Malvern) is Catholic, one (Episcopal) is (surprise, surprise) Episcopalian, and one or two others have a Quaker tradition. Some Germantown, Episcopal, and Malvern) have had very high-profile basketball teams, and some have had had strong football teams, sending a few players to big-time college programs and, at least in a couple of cases, ultimately to the NFL.

All the schools, I believe, allow five years of hs eligibility, something that would conflict with PIAA rules. But, really, what mainly keeps them out of the PIAA is their desire to stand apart from the plebs.

I was thinking maybe those teams could play with the PCL in order to make a private school playoff, but the 5 year thing kills it I guess

 

[RoverNation05]

Tulla - why would teams have to leave established leagues if there was a non-boundary class for playoffs? I’ve never understood that. Allentown Central Catholic and Bethlehem Catholic have been in the EPC since its founding in 1976, despite competing at a smaller classification than the rest of the league. Notre Dame in the Colonial League has been mixed up with 2A, 3A and 4A schools. I think playoff classification matters for…playoffs. Your league and who you play during the season has history, geography, and a million other considerations. When I talk about separating boundary schools, it’s not a “never the two shall meet” situation. I just think the point we are deciding a champion and ending teams seasons, it makes sense to be more apples to apples.

That’s actually one of the things that annoys me about SJP - it feels like they come in and dominant state playoffs, without really being a part of the state beforehand. They play fewer games, last year, they played more games out of state than in-state (this year it was only 3 if 9 instead of 5/9). They can do what they want, I understand putting together challenging schedules (Easton wrestling St Eds, Blair, Apple Valley MN, Great Bridge VA, going to Reno are some of the best high school events we’ve done, and all way outside the PIAA) and I know teams don’t want to schedule SJP, but I wonder in a separated playoff if more teams would be willing to take the challenge if the penalty was just a regular season loss. Again, crossing sport lines, I used to love wrestling Blair as a measuring stick to see how good Easton was, I wouldn’t want to compete with them for a state championship. Others may feel similar about SJP football.

 

[tulla]

Tulla - why would teams have to leave established leagues if there was a non-boundary class for playoffs? I’ve never understood that. Allentown Central Catholic and Bethlehem Catholic have been in the EPC since its founding in 1976, despite competing at a smaller classification than the rest of the league. Notre Dame in the Colonial League has been mixed up with 2A, 3A and 4A schools. I think playoff classification matters for…playoffs. Your league and who you play during the season has history, geography, and a million other considerations. When I talk about separating boundary schools, it’s not a “never the two shall meet” situation. I just think the point we are deciding a champion and ending teams seasons, it makes sense to be more apples to apples.

That’s actually one of the things that annoys me about SJP - it feels like they come in and dominant state playoffs, without really being a part of the state beforehand. They play fewer games, last year, they played more games out of state than in-state (this year it was only 3 if 9 instead of 5/9). They can do what they want, I understand putting together challenging schedules (Easton wrestling St Eds, Blair, Apple Valley MN, Great Bridge VA, going to Reno are some of the best high school events we’ve done, and all way outside the PIAA) and I know teams don’t want to schedule SJP, but I wonder in a separated playoff if more teams would be willing to take the challenge if the penalty was just a regular season loss. Again, crossing sport lines, I used to love wrestling Blair as a measuring stick to see how good Easton was, I wouldn’t want to compete with them for a state championship. Others may feel similar about SJP football.

Rover, I was thinking mainly of IMHOTEP. If they stay in the PPL--and really there's no other place for them to go--it's hard to see how they could participate in league playoffs that determine the league champions and then quickly jump over to play in the non-boundary playoffs. Maybe it would depend on how many PPL schools make the playoffs in whatever classification IMHOTEP is in. And in basketball, there might be other PPL charter schools who could fall between the two stools. Maybe it could all be worked out, but there could also be some pieces that don't easily fit together. I suppose this could also affect PCC in the WPIAL. As I understand it, having separate non-boundary classifications would make PCC unable to play in the WPIAL playoffs since they might have a game against, say, Erie Cathedral or Bishop McDevitt in the first round of the state playoffs for non-boundary schools. The east-west imbalance would cause some logistical headaches in any large school non-boundary classification.

As for SJP playing PA schools outside the PCL, I really wonder who would be willing, at least in the foreseeable future. They play freshman and JV games against Malvern but my understanding is that Malvern hasn't wanted to play varsity games against SJP since 2015 (when Malvern won). I remember SJP playing in-season games against Bethlehem Catholic, Neshaminy, Freedom, and North Penn earlier this century, but most PA public schools have little or no wiggle room in their schedules and I suspect most wouldn't want to schedule SJP now.

 

[Stalker]

I was thinking maybe those teams could play with the PCL in order to make a private school playoff, but the 5 year thing kills it I guess

NA; They play as good a football as many, many teams in the state. Their Top 1 or 2 teams are typically as good as any in the state excepting SJP. They're very old schools of long tradition that gain nothing from joining the PIAA and are already some of the most prestigious schools in the East playing a very legit schedule. Then there's the "5th year seniors" (so to speak) that precludes them.

Here are the founding dates.
William Penn Charter 1689
Germantown Academy 1759
Episcopal Academy 1785
Malvern Prep School 1842
Springside Chestnut Hill Academy 1861
The Haverford School 1884

Schedule egs 2024....Top 2 teams
Haverford School 7-3; Wyomissing 20-3, LaSalle 6-34, Bonner-Prendi 14-39
Malvern Prep 8-2; LaSalle 17-21, Roman 17-21, Zaga 13-7, Delbarton-NJ 27-17

 

[GumbaToo]

File this as some change other than separate public / private playoffs.

It’s been close to two years since I last checked in on this board and probably at least 10 years since being a regular poster. I really wasn’t expecting too much to have changed, with most of the arguments about the unfair advantages of private over public schools and vice versa continuing more or less unchanged.

However, it was a little surprising to see how the two sides got new labels, “Boundary” and “No boundary” schools. Reminds me a little of how the “Pro-Choice” and “Pro-Life” labels help plead the cases of each group’s position. Although accurate as far as they go, those labels only capture half the picture. Better labels would be “Boundary / Tuition Free schools” and “No boundary / Tuition schools”.

The single focus on boundaries or no boundaries ignores many of the advantages of public schools, both financially (no tuition) and their huge advantages in facilities. It will never happen, but hypothetically (ignore disparate school tax issues across the state) the only way to truly equalize the differences between public and private schools is to:

(1) eliminate boundaries for every public school, giving public school parents and students the choice of where to attend and

(2) eliminate the tuition advantage of public schools, implementing school choice for private schools (adjusting to eliminate funding for religious education) so that parents’ tax dollars can be applied to the private school of their choice.

No boundaries and no tuition for all students statewide. What could be freer and more equal than that?

If in a one in a million chance both the boundaries and tuition advantages were implemented, it still might not produce the result the public-school fans would be hoping for.

• Many catholic families and students who previously could not afford tuition would switch back over to Catholic high schools (especially in Philly or other larger more urban areas), diluting talent in the public schools.
• The number of non-Catholic students attending Catholic high schools would increase (again especially in Philly or other larger more urban areas).
• Certain schools (both private and public) may become power houses in certain sports as success attracts more students from a particular sport.

If the PIAA playoffs are split between public (boundary/ tuition free) and private (no-boundary/tuition paying) schools why would the privates want to stay in the PIAA? I’d expect that the private schools could run their own version of the PIAA more efficiently than the current PIAA. Combining the PCL and the WPIAL would be a start.

 

[Fletchster1]

Non-boundary include charter schools which are tuition free. Non-boundary schools are free to leave the PIAA; heck, I'd love to see the 5A and 6A boundary schools in SE PA jump ship. At least do something to put pressure on the currently ridiculous playoff structure.