My takeaway from 2024 PIAA state championships

[tulla]

and what is a "commuting distance" for them? probably a much further distance than every public school

When I went to the Prep we had students from as far away as Trenton and Reading who travelled back and forth to school every day. Of course that's a much larger catchment area than any public school district. Everyone knows that and everyone who was interested knew that when SJP joined the PIAA. So where is the cheating?

As every SJP supporter has always said, there is of course an advantage to having students from all the places where SJP students live. What many of us would also like others to recognize is that having probably no students from within 3 miles of the school and probably no more than 10% of the students from within 7 or 8 miles of the school is also a big challenge when it comes to sports. Some might even call it a disadvantage, though not one that outweighs the advantage. What would be nice is to see the hysteria--"players from all over the east coast,' "players from four states," etc.--die down. The success of Bonner, Roman, LaSalle, IMHOTEP, and Malvern this year testifies to the fact that SJP doesn't just hoover up every promising player.

 

[northalleghenytiger]

NA and 2020. What's the issue with Cumberland Valley High as a state playoff site? It's fully renovated stadium, press box, new field-lights, etc. Holds 5000 plus, 10 miles from the pike (Camp Hill). Have you seen it? It's a beautiful venue. Just curious.
NA, the competition for the playoff site was put up for bid meaning all the others....Herco, State College, etc lost. The PIAA is out to make a buck not spend them so I think it's unlikely it would ever be at a Heinz Field-Villanova level facility. Also feel they'll always keep it centrally located.
I've heard people mention State College which is smaller (4000) and not near as nice as CV's facility. Check them out online.

Yes I’ve been to Cumberland Valley, it’s about as good as it gets at the high school level. But I don’t think it should be at the high school level. It should have more Aura. Just seemed like a step back in my opinion

 

[northalleghenytiger]

you can subscribe to PCN and get all the games from the past 2 years

PCN Select Subscription Signup

pcntv.com

What’s the best way to find games from before then? All the wpial and state title games were televised, so I’m sure there saved somewhere. For the life of me I can’t find them

 

[BradlyPitt]

What’s the best way to find games from before then? All the wpial and state title games were televised, so I’m sure there saved somewhere. For the life of me I can’t find them

you have to find them on youtube or hope that somebody with a copy uploads them to youtube

what games are you looking for?

a few years ago i found a channel with almost every wpial title game since the late 90's - late 2000's, he said they were removed because of a copyright strike

who the hell files a copyright strike for high school games from 20+ years ago that aired on a network that no longer exists?

 

[BradlyPitt]

When I went to the Prep we had students from as far away as Trenton and Reading who travelled back and forth to school every day. Of course that's a much larger catchment area than any public school district. Everyone knows that and everyone who was interested knew that when SJP joined the PIAA. So where is the cheating?

As every SJP supporter has always said, there is of course an advantage to having students from all the places where SJP students live. What many of us would also like others to recognize is that having probably no students from within 3 miles of the school and probably no more than 10% of the students from within 7 or 8 miles of the school is also a big challenge when it comes to sports. Some might even call it a disadvantage, though not one that outweighs the advantage. What would be nice is to see the hysteria--"players from all over the east coast,' "players from four states," etc.--die down. The success of Bonner, Roman, LaSalle, IMHOTEP, and Malvern this year testifies to the fact that SJP doesn't just hoover up every promising player.

how many more state titles do they need for you to admit there needs to be major changes to the system?

they have 9 since 2013, would 10 titles do it? 11? 12? do you have doubts they won't win those titles with the quarterback and another Harrison on the roster?

 

[tulla]

how many more state titles do they need for you to admit there needs to be major changes to the system?

they have 9 since 2013, would 10 titles do it? 11? 12? do you have doubts they won't win those titles with the quarterback and another Harrison on the roster?

I will be very surprised if SJP wins 9 of the next 12 state championships because I realize all the elements that have had to be in place these last several years. You can start with the continuity and quality of the coaching. And given the nature of the Prep program, the potential for serious internal strains and conflict is very large. That they've been able to avoid all that, while being under the microscope, is a great achievement.

Anyone looking at who's returning next year at LaSalle and SJP--and who is sensible--would have to say LaSalle should be at least a co-favorite in the PCL. So ... doubts? Certainly.

 

[2020sports]

NA and 2020. What's the issue with Cumberland Valley High as a state playoff site? It's fully renovated stadium, press box, new field-lights, etc. Holds 5000 plus, 10 miles from the pike (Camp Hill). Have you seen it? It's a beautiful venue. Just curious.
NA, the competition for the playoff site was put up for bid meaning all the others....Herco, State College, etc lost. The PIAA is out to make a buck not spend them so I think it's unlikely it would ever be at a Heinz Field-Villanova level facility. Also feel they'll always keep it centrally located.
I've heard people mention State College which is smaller (4000) and not near as nice as CV's facility. Check them out online.

I've been following Pine-Richland for the last 10 years, so I have been to about 10 different "neutral sites" for playoffs- so yes, I have been to CV. It is nice, but not a "destination" and nothing exciting for family and kids, to see, or do- and not really exciting for players. Frankly, it would be a good quality site for semi-final games, then have a better "destination" site for the final.

and, I am sure there a few other nice facilities around the state- but I can tell, you, Pine-Richland High School stadium is much nicer than CV. to be honest, if i recall, the concession and bathrooms at CV were not very convenient.

Again- I'm sorry- it is ridiculous for the PIAA to "make a buck." They should not be looking to make a dime. Their priority should be a quality venue, but also a "destination" to reward the teams who earned the right to play there- break even- and if necessary, raise some money, to offset costs a bit, to make the playoff process better.

 

[RoverNation05]

Ohio uses multiple sites, and there might be something to that in PA too. Then you could adjust the site for the makeup of the classification. 6A could go back and forth between greater Pittsburgh and greater Philadelphia. Some of the smaller classifications with schools concentrated in the middle of the states could use central Pa facilities. It’s not like the “every game hosted here” results in some larger community events and convention like atmosphere for the three days. But if you have three sites with two games each, that may be a way to move the games closer to the population centers playing in them without sacrificing the experience.

 

[2020sports]

I will be very surprised if SJP wins 9 of the next 12 state championships because I realize all the elements that have had to be in place these last several years. You can start with the continuity and quality of the coaching. And given the nature of the Prep program, the potential for serious internal strains and conflict is very large. That they've been able to avoid all that, while being under the microscope, is a great achievement.

Anyone looking at who's returning next year at LaSalle and SJP--and who is sensible--would have to say LaSalle should be at least a co-favorite in the PCL. So ... doubts? Certainly.

wow you guys are funny- brad, a bit extreme- but Tulla- sorry- all due respect... wow- you have talked this year and last, about the "flaws" of SJP? PCC and north allegheny had their best teams in 5 years, and both got crushed by SJP. When is too much? Saying SJP cheats, I don't think i agree- but saying they have too many unfair advantages over boundrary schools? Yep i agree. At this point, all three higher levels (4A, 5A, 6A) being dominated by private/non-boundary schools. That's just crazy. PIAA has gotta change something.

If SJP does NOT win 9 of the next 12? Well, ok maybe, but the teams they lose to, are not gonna be a normal public school like Harrisburg or North Allegheny? Nope, that has become nearly impossible.

 

[northalleghenytiger]

you have to find them on youtube or hope that somebody with a copy uploads them to youtube

what games are you looking for?

a few years ago i found a channel with almost every wpial title game since the late 90's - late 2000's, he said they were removed because of a copyright strike

who the hell files a copyright strike for high school games from 20+ years ago that aired on a network that no longer exists?

might be some loser copyrighting the games, or maybe there might be an algorithm on YouTube that flags them

There’s quite a few games I’d like to see honestly

Obviously would like to see the NA championships from 1990 and the 2010-2012 run

I’d like to see the broadcast from Woodland Hills wpial title games from 1999-2002

Maybe the state title games from pine Richland and Lebo

Central vs St. joes in 2016, it seems wild that with how much talent central had, they lost 42-7. Love to see how it happened

Might have to ask Mike white on his tuedsay chats how to find them LOL

 

[tulla]

wow you guys are funny- brad, a bit extreme- but Tulla- sorry- all due respect... wow- you have talked this year and last, about the "flaws" of SJP? PCC and north allegheny had their best teams in 5 years, and both got crushed by SJP. When is too much? Saying SJP cheats, I don't think i agree- but saying they have too many unfair advantages over boundrary schools? Yep i agree. At this point, all three higher levels (4A, 5A, 6A) being dominated by private/non-boundary schools. That's just crazy. PIAA has gotta change something.

If SJP does NOT win 9 of the next 12? Well, ok maybe, but the teams they lose to, are not gonna be a normal public school like Harrisburg or North Allegheny? Nope, that has become nearly impossible.

You'll have to help me out here. This year I heard that at the 5A and especially at the 6A levels, the WPIAL was way down and also that PCC and NA had "their best teams in five years." Can both be true. Were PCC in 2024 and NA in 2023 as good as ML in 2021? I don't know but people in the WPAL must have a good sense.

This year SJP lost 35-21 to a St. Edward's team that lost five games--or was it six?--some to public schools in Ohio. They beat Good Counsel (which lost four other games) by two points. Good Counsel beat a local public school (Columbus) 14-10. All this leads me to think at least sections of hs football in PA may be relatively weak. No?

Again, no denying that not having boundaries is a big advantage, but it's far from the whole picture. Is it not also possible that SJP improves a good deal over the course of a season? Certainly they were much better in the second half of this season than they were in the first half.

 

[northalleghenytiger]

You'll have to help me out here. This year I heard that at the 5A and especially at the 6A levels, the WPIAL was way down and also that PCC and NA had "their best teams in five years." Can both be true. Were PCC in 2024 and NA in 2023 as good as ML in 2021? I don't know but people in the WPAL must have a good sense.

This year SJP lost 35-21 to a St. Edward's team that lost five games--or was it six?--some to public schools in Ohio. They beat Good Counsel (which lost four other games) by two points. Good Counsel beat a local public school (Columbus) 14-10. All this leads me to think at least sections of hs football in PA may be relatively weak. No?

Again, no denying that not having boundaries is a big advantage, but it's far from the whole picture. Is it not also possible that SJP improves a good deal over the course of a season? Certainly they were much better in the second half of this season than they were in the first half.

I think 2023 was a strong year for Wpial and PIAA. NA and central fielded strong teams. Unfortunately for NA they had to go up against the greatest PA team ever, with about 20 D1 players. No public school would ever have a chance

 

[Stalker]

I've been following Pine-Richland for the last 10 years, so I have been to about 10 different "neutral sites" for playoffs- so yes, I have been to CV. It is nice, but not a "destination" and nothing exciting for family and kids, to see, or do- and not really exciting for players. Frankly, it would be a good quality site for semi-final games, then have a better "destination" site for the final.

and, I am sure there a few other nice facilities around the state- but I can tell, you, Pine-Richland High School stadium is much nicer than CV. to be honest, if i recall, the concession and bathrooms at CV were not very convenient.

Again- I'm sorry- it is ridiculous for the PIAA to "make a buck." They should not be looking to make a dime. Their priority should be a quality venue, but also a "destination" to reward the teams who earned the right to play there- break even- and if necessary, raise some money, to offset costs a bit, to make the playoff process better.

I think you and NA are saying the same thing; NA that it doesn't have aura, you that it's nice but not a distinction.
So the issue must be that it is not at Hershey Stadium? Because it's not going to be at Citizen's Bank, Villanova, Pine Richland, Heinz or any other location that is not in central PA.
Everything about the playoffs seems centered around lowering costs, period. So I think you're stuck with CV until they're out bid.
The families, kids etc you alluded to are not showing up, nor are the adults to attend these games. And 2020, no offense but I don't believe the players care about the venue. They want to play ball. I was involved in state playoffs in hoops and my nephew and no one cared where we played. Just that we played.
Check attendance figures. They were dismal when it was at Hershey and they have a park. That's why I did the piece on Florida HS FB playoffs that aren't doing much better than PA in terms of attendance!

 

[RoverNation05]

Ohio’s attendance for their finals

Division I - 4,814
Division II - 4,911
Division III - 4,410
Division IV - 7,350
Division V - 4,981
Division VI - 4,372
Division VII - 4,284

Ten years ago, all of the games drew over 7,000, and three of them were over 10,000. Last season, with Massolin Washington playing for and winning their first state championship in the playoff era (1972-), they drew 14,846 for their championship game, so they can still get a huge crowd with the right school. That’s the “Easton is finally going to do this” scenario - Massolin is the program founded by Paul Brown (like the Cleveland Browns) and was derisively known by their rivals as the “Paper Tigers”, because their 13 state titles were all won in the poll era and they’d never broken through since the start of state playoffs in 1973.

Massolin drew over 16,000 to the state final when they went and lost in 2018.

They play their finals at Tom Benson Hall of Fame Stadium in Canton (right next to the Pro Football Hall of Fame), which seats 17,000. It’s also the home of Canton McKinley high school. Massolin and Ohio State have also hosted state finals in Ohio.

 

[tulla]

Ohio’s attendance for their finals

Division I - 4,814
Division II - 4,911
Division III - 4,410
Division IV - 7,350
Division V - 4,981
Division VI - 4,372
Division VII - 4,284

Ten years ago, all of the games drew over 7,000, and three of them were over 10,000. Last season, with Massolin Washington playing for and winning their first state championship in the playoff era (1972-), they drew 14,846 for their championship game, so they can still get a huge crowd with the right school. That’s the “Easton is finally going to do this” scenario - Massolin is the program founded by Paul Brown (like the Cleveland Browns) and was derisively known by their rivals as the “Paper Tigers”, because their 13 state titles were all won in the poll era and they’d never broken through since the start of state playoffs in 1973.

Massolin drew over 16,000 to the state final when they went and lost in 2018.

They play their finals at Tom Benson Hall of Fame Stadium in Canton (right next to the Pro Football Hall of Fame), which seats 17,000. It’s also the home of Canton McKinley high school. Massolin and Ohio State have also hosted state finals in Ohio.

Very interesting. So it seems attendance is going down, though to different degrees, in lots of places. I tried to get figures for the Jersey championship games but couldn't find them. Interestingly all seven finals are played either at MetLife Stadium or at Rutgers, at least one as early as 11:00 am.

I think it would be a mistake to hold any PA championship games, regardless of how the classifications are defined, at any stadium that holds more than 30,000 and maybe even 20,000.

 

[new2pa]

2023 PCC - best PCC team in 20 years. Choked

2024 PCC - best of a mediocre WPIAL 6A

 

[steelcurtain55.]

2023 PCC - best PCC team in 20 years. Choked

2024 PCC - best of a mediocre WPIAL 6A

I didn't think the 2023 PCC executed very well. Defensively, they were a mess against the run vs good teams and it was pure execution and scheme. They were better this year but not great.

Offensively, I thought the 2nd year of Reitz and Lehmier showed better continuity. The OL played better imo. The scheme itself had better rhythm.

Watch out for #87 in the next few years. He's moving to the OL and his film from a blocking perspective is downright elite. He's 6'5 250-255 with a ton of mobility. If he gets into that 275-285 range, he might be a 4 star type kid.

 

[aerogenes]

it's one down year, the only year since 1992 that the wpial didn't win a title

still have by far the most in the state with 58 titles

maybe those schools you named aren't as good as they used to be, but they are still very good for the most part, Woodland Hills and North Hills have really fallen off since they lost their long time coaches

if you're going back a decade like you said, that was the golden age for Erie Cathedral Prep

population decline is not to blame for anything, it's the CHEATING from the PCL that is ruining everything

Agree. Enrollment at North Hills has been increasing for the last decade, it's currently bigger than when Jack McCurry won his 1993 state title. North Hills problem in football is 100% a coaching problem.

Catholic schools that are allowed to assemble regional all-star teams won 4 of the 6 PIAA titles this year. They are just getting better and more brazen with the recruiting.

 

[northalleghenytiger]

I feel like Kasperowicz should go to his alma mater North Hills, Mars is a lost cause with Warfield coming back to Aliquippa

 

[BradlyPitt]

might be some loser copyrighting the games, or maybe there might be an algorithm on YouTube that flags them

There’s quite a few games I’d like to see honestly

Obviously would like to see the NA championships from 1990 and the 2010-2012 run

I’d like to see the broadcast from Woodland Hills wpial title games from 1999-2002

Maybe the state title games from pine Richland and Lebo

Central vs St. joes in 2016, it seems wild that with how much talent central had, they lost 42-7. Love to see how it happened

Might have to ask Mike white on his tuedsay chats how to find them LOL

the 1990 state title game against Ridley was on youtube but I can't find it now, why would somebody upload that and then delete?

never saw or found the state title games in 2010 or 2012, but there is the 2011 wpial title game



the woodland Hills games were all on the channel I mentioned, here is the 2001 state title game



2017 PR state title game, this channel has most of their games from that era



2021 Mt Lebanon



maybe you can ask the NA athletic department for copies of those games

 

[BradlyPitt]

2023 PCC - best PCC team in 20 years. Choked

2024 PCC - best of a mediocre WPIAL 6A

no way they were the best in 20 years, arguably not the best in 5 years

 

[BradlyPitt]

Agree. Enrollment at North Hills has been increasing for the last decade, it's currently bigger than when Jack McCurry won his 1993 state title. North Hills problem in football is 100% a coaching problem.

Catholic schools that are allowed to assemble regional all-star teams won 4 of the 6 PIAA titles this year. They are just getting better and more brazen with the recruiting.

why is North Hills losing so many kids to other schools?

Makeek Thomas and the other kid who I am drawing a blank on right now that went to Marquette

and then the kid to Aliquippa among others?

I asked Mike White in his chat but he ignored the question, probably because he has lived there his whole life and coaches the JV team and sometimes helps with varsity

 

[northalleghenytiger]

the 1990 state title game against Ridley was on youtube but I can't find it now, why would somebody upload that and then delete?

never saw or found the state title games in 2010 or 2012, but there is the 2011 wpial title game

View embedded media

the woodland Hills games were all on the channel I mentioned, here is the 2001 state title game

View embedded media

2017 PR state title game, this channel has most of their games from that era

View embedded media

2021 Mt Lebanon

View embedded media

maybe you can ask the NA athletic department for copies of those games

Wow great thanks

I just asked Mike white on his sports chat and he said he has no idea LOL

The 2nd touchdown against USC was so out of bounds it’s not even funny, if I didn’t know any better I’d say coach Walker Jr. is longtime friends with the refs

 

[BradlyPitt]

Wow great thanks

I just asked Mike white on his sports chat and he said he has no idea LOL

The 2nd touchdown against USC was so out of bounds it’s not even funny, if I didn’t know any better I’d say coach Walker Jr. is longtime friends with the refs

yeah i read that and thought it was you haha

he sure is surly in that chat

 

[Vikingofpittsburgh]

Mike White was very rude to me when I asked an honest question. Suffice it to say I don't go on his chats anymore.

 

[Stalker]

Mike White was very rude to me when I asked an honest question. Suffice it to say I don't go on his chats anymore.

I hope you reminded him he's a HS sportswriter. Not exactly an irreplaceable part!

 

[BradlyPitt]

Mike White was very rude to me when I asked an honest question. Suffice it to say I don't go on his chats anymore.

he's very rude

my problem with that is he seems like a good guy on TV, he's clearly a fake

 

[northalleghenytiger]

He seems cynical, which I get after doing the same thing for 30 years but jeez. Have some enthusiasm!