LL - Lumber Liquidators - STAY AWAY

[JBinPA]

Not sure if anyone saw the 60 minutes report but stay away from the LL product and more importantly its' stock. There will be lots of dust to settle here and who knows if the chain even continues to operate long run.

So, don't be brave, be smart; stay far, far away.

 

[paul from philly]

Why does anyone still do business with China??!!

 

[JBinPA]

I wouldn't be quick to blame China; in fact, they were quite open about what they were doing.

I think when it all washes out, they will find LL management complicit in all this; that said, if I have a floor installed that is LL material, I'd probably seek out an attorney.

 

[sammyk]

I saw that as well. China has time and time again proven that they sell faulty goods and harmful ones at that, it might be time to break away but as long as businesses are making money it will not change. I am for bringing all of those businesses back to the US but it would cut so much into the profit it may never happen, they work for pennies over there

 

[fb107]

Chinese teachers! That would cut outrageous education costs...

 

[sammyk]

Ok already have them they leave as soon as they can , can't hack it . Chinese parents now that's the ticket pro education and support teachers and hold kids to a standard and keep their mouths shut and are never douche bags yea there is the ticket

 

[fb107]

OK we'll bus in (or boat in) Chinese students, but the pension still has to go!

 

[njfan47]

That is a broad generalization, Sammy, and an uninformed one. My company has been bringing in chemicals from China for 10 years and we have had great success, building the business from zero in 2005 to over $11 million this year. If a company works with the right suppliers, China is a great place to do business.

Lumber Liquidators' problem is that they put pressure on the Chinese to supply lumber at levels that were priced 10% lower than what anyone else could offer. There was no focus on quality. In our case, if the numbers on the deal don't work out, we don't get involved. We don't ask our two suppliers to cut the price to unreasonably low levels.

As with all cases, 60 Minutes tells only one side of the story, and the LL side needs to be heard. But clearly, a lot of bad things went on here. It's now just a matter of whether 60 Minutes exaggerated anything or held back any facts that would be less damaging to LL.

 

[sammyk]

Up my pay say 20k to 63k and you can keep my small pension

 

[fb107]

Seems fair to me. And there is still room for a matching 401k. Most NEA members would say no....

 

[sammyk]

Look when you work in a state that the highest pay a teacher makes is around 50K which is terrible but anyway like I said if you paid me 63K I would give up my pension and go with a 401K which I have already. Once you leave places like PA, NJ, NY, Del teachers do not make squat. Our starting salary here is 33K after 17 years I my base is about 43K, plus our retirement is 80% so if you max out around 50K after 30 years you get about 40K when you retire, so yea many here rely on that pension. Up that pay 20K and you will see more teachers like me that might be willing to give it up but that will never happen here in NC

 

[sammyk]

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This post was edited on 3/5 1:19 PM by sammyk

 

[njfan47]

Sammy, if you knew that North Carolina was so bad for teachers' salaries, why did you go there in the first place? Wouldn't it have been better to have picked a state that offered better salaries?

I know that you had the offer to coach high school football, but wasn't the pay rate a higher priority than being a football coach, or was the "teacher plus coach package" good enough?

By the way, if I may ask, what does a HS football coach make in North Carolina?

 

[sammyk]

Most states are not like PA, NJ , NY , MD or the rest of the I-95 corridor or what many call it the U.S. brain trust ,where education is a priority they do not pay well, the Deep South pays terrible and places like Arizona, and the west are not much better. But to answer your question back in 1998 NC was on a mission to make NC education system the best in the SE, teachers pay was above the national average people were moving here from places like PA, NJ, OH, MD then political parties started to change and that vision was not only put on the back burner it was turned off. Now the state has a mass shortage of teachers there are still 500 unfilled teaching jobs here in NC Coaches in NC do not make that much an assistant makes about $2000 a head coach about $5000. So many of you on here do not realize that teachers make squat in about 40 of the 50 states that is the way it is, so many teachers look at it this way I am doing a job that was once respected and appreciated and I know that I will not make a lot of money and that is OK because when I retire I will have a pension. I moved because I was not willing to be a sub for 5 years to maybe get a job in PA I wanted to work ASAP. Getting a teachers job in PA is like getting a private meeting with the pope , almost impossible. But anyway all I hear about is teacher pensions this and teacher pensions that whatever I think in most of the 50 states teachers pensions are not breaking the state but give the General assembly time they will find a way to break those up as well

This post was edited on 3/6 8:06 AM by sammyk

This post was edited on 3/6 8:12 AM by sammyk

 

[njfan47]

Understood. It is a tough situation. A lot of the states that pay teachers well are those states that have huge debt. There has to be a happy medium somewhere and certainly if the shortage were to be large enough, the pay would have to go up. It does sound like a case of supply and demand, and maybe there is too much of a supply of teachers.

 

[sammyk]

I agree teaching should be a good job that pays ok. Do I think that I should be raking in 100K no that does not make sense, but is 50-70 K too much? I do not think so. No supply in places like PA, NJ, DEL, ect there is a surplus but in many states like TX, NC, SC, FLA, TN, AZ the non rust belt state can not seem to get enough or keep them,they have huge shortages. In fact the enrollment for students entering education in NC is down 25%, Texas is down 20% even NY state has seen a decline. NC and TX need teachers so bad that they go out of state to recruit and then at least in NC they lose half within 5 years because of several factors pay being one of them. PA has a surplus because the benefits are great but compared to NC, SC, Miss, FL, AL, GA, Ark, TN ect PA's educational system is better, further ahead, and values education as whole a lot more, so that state is at least seeing some return on investment there. My son went to a public school in NC , it was a good school as far as NC standards go but my concern was will he be able to compete with someone from PA, NJ, MD, NY, Conn. Where education is highly valued, and if was not for the work of me and my ex wife who are both college graduates and know the importance of an education and held him to way above standard my answer is no he would not have been able to, because the educational systems there are better

This post was edited on 3/6 10:02 AM by sammyk

 

[njfan47]

I agree with your range and I think teaching is a very important position. The one requirement I would have is that teachers don't talk about politics and don't talk about the goings-on in their union and the negotiations with the school board.

What do you mean by the enrollment being down? States like Texas are growing in population, so enrollment must be up, unless you are indicating that many students are going to private schools. I can see New York having a decline, with so many people getting away from the overreaching government of the Cuomo Dynasty! but not Texas.

As far as your son goes, what will really make the difference is his drive, attitude, character, common sense, etc.; all of the intangibles that can't really be taught in school. That assumes that all other things are equal or at least close to equal.

 

[sammyk]

I agree with not talking about negotiations but we do not have a union here so that concept is foreign to me. And as far as enrollment I was talking about people going into the educational field (College enrollment). And that is funny when you say things that can not be taught in school. That is another reason why teachers leaver they are being held accountable for things that they have no control over that affects student performance.

This post was edited on 3/6 11:22 AM by sammyk

 

[njfan47]

No teacher's union in North Carolina? I had no idea. Well, I do think all teachers should get paid more than $43,000, even if they are in their first year. What is the increase for teachers with 10 or 20 years of experience? I am sure there must be some scale up.

Understood on enrollment. It will always be a supply and demand issue and if supply of teachers is low, wages will need to go up, although probably not by any large amount.

 

[sammyk]

Teachers pay for NC

1st year is 33K
10th year 40K
20th year 46.5K
30th year 50K
38th year 50K

Against the law in NC for unions by state employees. I work in the fifth best paying area in NC
This post was edited on 3/6 11:38 AM by sammyk

This post was edited on 3/6 11:57 AM by sammyk

This post was edited on 3/6 11:58 AM by sammyk

 

[JBinPA]

NJ, I don't buy the old "shorts are out to get us" routine here that management is singing; LL's management knew for years they had a cost of goods 15% less than their competition. Almost all of it came from the cost of the Chinese components, did they think it was just luck that their competitors couldn't match their costs?

There will be a bounce here sometime, all cats bounce even dead ones, but long term I think this is a short.to 20; then if BK is not on the horizon it may be a trade simply to ride the short covering out.

 

[njfan47]

Agreed JB. The "shorts are out to get us" is almost always a poor argument. I could also see $20, as this company's reputation is in the tank.

By the way, oil is a good short right here. Specifically the ETF with the ticker symbol OIL. It's at $11.13 right now and it's a good time to short it here, but much better if it goes up to the $11.40 range.

 

[fb107]

Has any Democrat ever NOT raised taxes??

Yeah the pensions are no problem at all Sam lol! In Philly, their school budget is 2.7 billion per year. They have 2% sales tax, 10% by the drink tax, and casino money out the ass.

Now we have the bald headed fruitcake muppett looking bastard that was just elected governor who wants to raise income taxes and sales taxes across the board, but lower the city wage tax. A classic case of wealth redistribution and pension vote buying with the bulk of money coming from the suburbs, and going to that rat trap called Philadelphia.

Get rid of pensions retroactively for those under 40 and all new hires today, then we can talk about more $ if needed. Until then, bite me

 

[sammyk]

Re: Has any Democrat ever NOT raised taxes??

Until you raise my salary bite me

 

[fb107]

Re: Has any Democrat ever NOT raised taxes??

We're talking about PA Sam. I understand your pain in NC, but that is not the case here.

 

[sammyk]

Re: Has any Democrat ever NOT raised taxes??

Be careful what you wish for. PA public school system is very good and way way ahead of NC. Now could there be changes or overhauls sure but if PA starts making drastic changes and starts to look more like NC you will be faced with what we are facing down here which is, not being able to fill teaching spots which means you have subs in the classroom year long, a talent drain as far as educators go, NC has had a 25% decline in people enrolling in education which means we have a shallow talent pool, teachers leaving the profession after just a few short years which means the state just threw any money away on that teacher, losing already trained teachers to other states, ect ect. NC has no union, no tenure, poor pay, cut educational funding and no teachers. So what are you willing to trade not paying teachers or a poor educational system.

 

[fb107]

Re: Has any Democrat ever NOT raised taxes??

Again, I am not willing to continue with guaranteed pensions, early retirements and zero co-pay health insurance for ANY government workers going forward. Pensions should be eliminated and replaced with a matching 401k system. If you put your money in risky investments and lose, you get what you get like everyone else. Yes, government workers should have co-pays for doctor and specialist visits and prescriptions. And they should not be able to retire until at least 62 years of age regardless of years of service.

I do not believe that any of these "changes" (which are not changes, but fairly mirror the private sector) will affect being able to hire good teachers.

At the very least when liars like Obama, Wolf and Nutter say that we need more $ for the children, it will actually go to the children and not some Democrat vote buying scheme.

 

[sammyk]

Re: Has any Democrat ever NOT raised taxes??

So no pensions are you willing to pay more to teachers??? I am Ok with teachers paying for insurance my insurance that I pay for is 80/20 much like the rest of the state employees well except the politicians that is. Well you would like it here in NC state employees are treated like crap and paid awful you should move

 

[fb107]

Re: Has any Democrat ever NOT raised taxes??

Potentially teachers in NC should be paid more, but usually the cost of living dictates pay. For instance, NY teachers probably make much more because of the exorbitant cost of living. I don't believe the teachers in PA are underpaid though. I would not be in favor of more pay for teachers in PA, as they are fairly paid.

Again, just my opinion about how to stop this runaway train. Scott Walker appeals to my voting senses for this reason

This post was edited on 3/9 7:23 PM by fb107

 

[sammyk]

Re: Has any Democrat ever NOT raised taxes??

That he is anti education then he is your man. Like I said be careful what you ask for and supply and demand dictates pay and there is a short supply of teachers and a huge demand in NC but the GOP will never pay teachers in NC hence the terrible lack of educators here in the Deep South

 

[fb107]

Re: Has any Democrat ever NOT raised taxes??

Again, if the pension/healthcare obligations were realistic, then there would be more room for $ for teachers pay and the classroom. If your healthcare costs are in the 2000.00 per month range, and guaranteeing your pension costs an equal amount.....

Do you see what I mean? Paring both those costs would allow $ for what you speak of. You can't have it both ways......

Again, just my thoughts if we were actually looking to "fix" the educational "crisis"

 

[sammyk]

Re: Has any Democrat ever NOT raised taxes??

OK well we pay for our health care here and our pension is not only realistic but somewhat laughable and out pay is low and our crisis is not fixed

 

[sammyk]

Re: Has any Democrat ever NOT raised taxes??

We have 817 openings right now not 500 I was off a little

 

[fb107]

Re: Has any Democrat ever NOT raised taxes??

Time to move Sam..............BTW, when I talk about pensions, I mean all government employees. I don't think any state, municipal or federal employee should be allowed to unionize.

Again, my opinion regarding the fiscal future of this nation.. Walker has it correct!

This post was edited on 3/10 6:11 PM by fb107

 

[sammyk]

Re: Has any Democrat ever NOT raised taxes??

Move where every other Southeastern state is in the same boat, even Texas can not find enough teachers. What you talk about cutting taxes, paying state employees low wages, no tenure, no pensions Republican control is happening here in NC and has been for the past several years and it is turning out to be a catastrophe. When i first moved here in 1998 NC teachers pay was above the national average, people and businesses were moving here, the educational system was the best in the Southeast now I know the economy had impact on some of those things changing but the last thing you do do cut education. Pittsburgh went through this int he 1980's Mills shut down unemployment was what 15% maybe higher, what did Allegheny County do, they doubled down on education, job training, higher education and now Pittsburgh is killing it unemployment was low even through the recession. It is not 1950 and never will be again mill jobs are long gone , technology killed those jobs. It is no longer a muscle run bases economy it is a brain run economy. You want a skilled work force, a good educational system, if you do not quality jobs will not come to your state. Scott Walker is all about the same things that are going on in NCl, and you might be able to do something like this in a rust belt state where the population is not growing but in other places you can not do that everywhere.

 

[fb107]

Re: Has any Democrat ever NOT raised taxes??

Sam, I believe we can eliminate pensions (and replace with 401k) and tweak health benefits to allow for higher co-pays. The resulting savings would allow for an increase in pay, but still save a ton for the taxpayers. This will require legislation to accomplish. We already are near the bottom of the world in terms of the quality of our education system, while we spend the most money in the world.......Any other justification is strictly BS

 

[njfan47]

Re: Has any Democrat ever NOT raised taxes??

Sammy, I would be interested to hear how the NC situation is "turning out to be a catastrophe."

Also, would the teachers would teach harder and better if they were paid better?

Also, can you provide a link between education and the current job market in Pittsburgh? Could there have been other factors? And is the unemployment rate really that low there? Remember, people who have stopped looking for a job are not counted as unemployed.

 

[sammyk]

Re: Has any Democrat ever NOT raised taxes??

I can not answer for all teachers but do Doctors work harder if they get paid more, or cops, or trash men, ect?? But if we go back to Econ 101 supply and demand, Huge demand for teachers in all states except the rust belt

Most of the jobs in Pittsburgh and the surrounding counties were unskilled labor in the 1980's, all you needed was a high school diploma, now most of the jobs at least require post high school training and Pittsburgh has had a low unemployment rate even through the recession because of the diverse working environment, there is a ton of tech and medical jobs in Pittsburgh that was not the case in 1980. And this stopped looking for work thing that is crap such crap like I said I do not know one person who wants a job that can not find one, hey move to NC and be a teacher we have a ton of openings

This post was edited on 3/12 9:44 AM by sammyk

This post was edited on 3/12 10:08 AM by sammyk

 

[njfan47]

Re: Has any Democrat ever NOT raised taxes??


Still waiting for an answer on the catastrophe.

A higher pay rate, theoretically, should draw a better candidate. If a teacher agrees to work harder if his/her pay is increased, what does that say for their current effort level?

Still waiting for the link between the doubling down by schools and the resultant low unemployment rate. How did the schools double down and how did that spending help students learn more? Or is it mostly a case of having a lot of good entrepreneurs with lots of good business ideas?

 

[sammyk]

Re: Has any Democrat ever NOT raised taxes??

In North Carolina I guess the fact that you are under funding schools at every level and putting your states future work force behind other states. How is that not a huge problem???/


www.detriot2020.co
www.freeenterprise.com/story/pittsburgh
www.forbes.com
www.npr.org/fromsteel-totech

Pittsburgh became known as college town. You were partially right it took good business sense and political sense who knew they needed to spend the money to rebuild the workforce.,. 1950 is over my man, an educated workforce is the now and wave of the future. And to me if you go to a 2 year tech school or apprentice school that is educated. In fact those are the jobs that are unfilled right now, skilled jobs, jobs that require training or a degree.

This post was edited on 3/12 11:50 AM by sammyk