Changes in classification

[Delcofootballguy]

By Eric F. Epler | eepler@pennlive.com
on January 21, 2015 6:45 PM, updated January 21, 2015 7:49 PM
A new proposal to expand the PIAA football playoff format from four to six classifications is gaining steam around the Commonwealth.

Constructed by Bob Tonkin, a member of the football steering committee from District 9, the 16-page proposal offers a comprehensive breakdown on how six classifications would promote a more level playing field by narrowing the gap in enrollment figures inside each class.

Tonkin's proposal also aims to shorten the season by one week, lessening the chance of inclement weather hindering championship weekend. Only California and Texas (Dec. 20) crowned its 2014 champions later than Pennsylvania (Dec. 13).

Under the current system, roughly 145 football programs in the state compete in each classification. Expanding to six classes would bring that total to approximately 97 per class.

"Having worked and been all over the state, I've heard all the reasons from coaches or administrators on why we shouldn't change," said Tonkin, who submitted the proposal to the PIAA last month.

"I sat down and listed all those reasons and asked are they really valid reasons? So many times we say what's in the best interest of our student-athletes. Are we really doing that?"

If approved by the PIAA Board of Directors - a move several stages away - expansion would be in place for the 2016 season. Tonkin is expected to further discuss the proposal with directors of the Pennsylvania Scholastic Football Coaches Association at Penn State University Friday and Saturday.

Should the PIAA expand to 6 classifications in football?
The proposal would need to pass through the strategic planning committee and PIAA Board of Control before reaching the Board of Directors.

In 2009, a similar proposal reached the final stage and needed a two-thirds majority, or 21 affirmative votes, to complete the expansion to six classifications. It was eventually voted down 15-13.

WPIAL representatives were among those who strongly opposed expansion, a decision directly linked to its one-day championship round at Heinz Field. The Pittsburgh Steelers' home venue has hosted every WPIAL championship game since 2001.

"We're very proud and very protective of what we've done with the football championships, and [expanding] would take the shine from our apple," WPIAL executive director Tim O'Malley said in 2009.




WHAT THEY'RE SAYING

The subject of expanding PIAA football to six classifications will be dissected over the next few months. PennLive offered a quick email poll to around 75 District 3 football coaches on Tuesday.

Nearly 80-percent of coaches who responded were in favor of expanding, although a handful believed the current proposal doesn't address the ongoing debate of separating public and private schools.

"I don't think we need 6 classifications. Just one, non-public, if your district is not defined by geographic boundaries then you fall into this classification. It takes into account all parochial, cyber, or magnet schools." - Lancaster-Lebanon League coach

"I would rather rather see it stay with 4 classes and add two classes for parochial or private schools." - L-L coach

"I am in favor of change, but 6 classifications will not fix the public vs. private issue. I would have no problem keeping 4 classes of public then 2 (big and small school) of private." - L-L coach

"Being from one of the smallest schools in the district I would support a six classification system." - Tri-Valley League coach

"I would be in favor of discussing the change, but there are plenty of questions to be answered." - Mid-Penn coach

 

[paul from philly]

Slippery slope!! I'm assuming this would be for all sports?

 

[Relayer]

Not all sports have 4 classifications today. For example, soccer only has three and wrestling two. It will be interesting to see how they tweak each sport.

 

[SPEED&JUMP DR.]

This might not be as big a change as it looks like on paper. There are two proposals being suggested. One is six equal classes of about 97 schools in each class , based strictly on enrollment. This would be fought tooth and nail by pittsburghers and im not sure if it can pass without their support. The second is to simply add 2 private school classes to the 4 that exist for 6 total classifications. Once you pull the privates out, the 4 publics would be divided into 4 classes of about 125 instead of the now 147 per class. So about 20 schools per clas at the margins of each enrollment class would be affected. This one has a better chance of passing out west , and therefore more likely across the state.

 

[wcburrs87]

Cool. I look forward to reading about how the public champs in a given year would beat the private champs. Of course, this would be coming from the public school crybabies who spearheaded the change.

Do the public school crybabies realize that advantages/disadvantages in HS athletics is more than just geographical boundaries? There are other issues that they conveniently ignore. Furthermore, if all you need is no boundaries to be successful, then why are the majority of private/charter schools just ordinary or below?

I love it. The PCL was always told, or often mocked, to celebrate their Red/Blue titles. That they wouldn't succeed on the state level. Wrong! They have kicked butt and now the crybabies want to change things.

 

[Relayer]

Huck, like your feistiness, I hope the separation never happens. To this day, we all wish that North Penn-St Joe Prep in 2003 would have been a reality. I have stated many times that if the PIAA had divided public and private schools, us fans would have been robbed of many memorable games. CBW-Beca (2x), CBW-ECP (2x), NP-LS (2x) and PR-SJP to name a few.
This post was edited on 1/24 6:38 PM by Relayer

 

[Stalker]

I put this link up a few days ago when the topic visited the board to show what D7 is thinking. Being from D3, I can say people I know there are ok with the current format realizing it's no secret small quads have done well in the postseason, USC-561, McKees-526, Woody-573, largely for the same reasons some private schools consistently do well, great coaching. (Pine-Rich has 589) So despite understanding the clear advantages some private schools have, the overriding sentiment there is...."so what".
Still, you can make a good argument for 6 classes just so you don't think that will cure the ills of a program that is not committed to winning.


I enjoy following FB in a few states, mostly FL (Tex, Ohio) besides PA. There they have 8 classes. Sounds simple but it isn't an even divide. Here's how it breaks down.

The following 4 classes are largely public schools with few private schools having such enrollments. But there are private schools here and they do well. I've listed a few egs.
8A 2332-4492, 88 teams, Christopher Columbus Catholic-Miami
7A 1939-2331, 82 teams, St. Thomas Aquinas, 8 titles
6A 1593-1938, 83 teams, Belen Jesuit-Miami
5A 1115-1938, 86 teams, American Heritage-Plantation

Here's where it gets interesting....
4A 681-1114, 35 teams....a mix of private and public schools, Bolles School-Jax, 11 titles, most in state
3A 291-680, 33 teams....almost exclusively private schools with few exceptions, Trinity Christian-Jax, 5 titles
Obviously they could have lumped 4A with 3A for 68 teams but didn't.

Here the split is almost absolute
2A 1-290, 29 teams....private schools
1A 1--600, 40 teams...public schools

http://triblive.com/sports/hssports/football/7582137-74/class-enrollment-wpial#axzz3Pmv27Vtl

 

[not_a_fan]

Maybe we should have PIAA state champions for every district except D7. If the WPIAL is so dead set on keeping things the same, let the WPIAL Championships be their state championship. There's still enough good football in the state that in a few years, nobody would notice they were missing....

 

[tulla]

If they make the mistake of creating separate classifications for private/Catholic schools, I suppose it was all the talk about SJP having players from three states that will have made the difference. Maybe if Armen Ware, SJP's only player from Delaware, hadn't moved from Philly to Delaware a few years ago, there wouldn't be enough impetus to change.

Anyway, I wonder if anyone who's hot and bothered about the "non-publics" having a supposedly immense advantage has considered that a PCL team won the 4A championship exactly once in the first five years after the PCL entered the PIAA, that in 2013 when SJP won they barely got out of D12 (beating Frankford by 3) and had a very tough game against Neshaminy, and that this year SJP obviously had very close games against Parkland and P-R. Thus, it is by no means the case that 4A has become uncompetitive because of the PCL.

 

[wcburrs87]

I heard that six classes with 4 Pub and 2 private has zero chance of happening.

 

[JBinPA]

I thought the new 6 class being pushed has nothing to do with pub / private; it is strictly based on enrollment. I say we just do 900 classes all based on enrollment that way everyone wins!

 

[littleguyscoach]

Hey they beat Fkd by 3 only because they didn't have their QB or they would have won by 10 td's going away, right?

 

[wcburrs87]

Originally posted by littleguyscoach:
Hey they beat Fkd by 3 only because they didn't have their QB or they would have won by 10 td's going away, right?

No, not ten. But more than likely three.

If you didn't see the difference between Martin leading the team and a green Clements, then there really isn't much point in having this discussion. With that said, FRK wasn't going to rollover and the win would have been earned. FRK's personnel that year matched-up decently with them. Better than a lot of teams.

 

[SPEED&JUMP DR.]

If the six class proposal passes, it would result in 6 classes of about 95 schools per class. However, the reason most often given for going to more classes is the huge disparity of enrollment numbers at the AAAA level., esoecislly in the larger districts like districts 1, 3 and7. Right now the AAAA cutoff if is about 500 kids. Adding 2 extra classes does not do much at largest level. The proposed AAAAAA level would only raise the bottom line enrollment numbers by about 100, so anything over 600 would be in the big school class, still competing against schools with well over 1000 kids

 

[wcburrs87]

I think there are three different proposals in terms of enrollment cut-offs with the highest being around 700-750. Not sure how likely that is, though.

 

[fb107]

Re: Changes in diplomas

Well said Huck! Are they going to have pub/private diplomas also? Might be a good idea because the disparity in the classroom is way more egregious than it is on the football field.....

 

[gingy]

Re: Changes in diplomas

More BS-sounds like y'all are the ones crying.Could someone please provide a list of those feeder schools that the Piaa "required" Maybe some of the private/charter schools don't do so well because they don't recruit for specific sports?

 

[2loudNclear]

I remember Brooks saying in mixed group of PCL guys years ago that the PIAA would regret the day they invited the PCL into the mix! I think he was wrong, the PIAA doesn't regret it the pretenders regret it!

 

[coach1378]

To add more classes is pointless. The need to keep the 4 size groups. However, I would separate the public schools from the private-charter schools. That is the only way to even things up.

 

[gingy]

"pretenders" translation-those that don't recruit.

 

[defcon3]

I find it funny when PCL guys always respond to the "Private schools should be in their own class debate" with answers like "Why not just have 19 state champions like New Jersey?" as a defense point to keep everything the same.

The funny part is that the Catholic league has 14 or 15 teams. For those 15 teams, they crown 3 PCL Champions, and literally half the league makes some form of "all catholic league." So they criticize the possible addition of classes because it would water down the product, while the league they play in %33 of the teams win the "Championship" and 50% of the players get "all league" honors.

Seems a little hypocritical.

 

[franklinfield]

If the classification scheme were a product of the PCL, your point would be valid. But that is not the case, as I imagine you are aware.

 

[Fletchster1]

It would be odd if everyone made the playoffs too.