which teams would you say were the worst state champions?

[BradlyPitt]

timing is everything in life, sometimes the stars align perfectly for teams that were good but not quite great and they end up winning it all

Upper St. Clair 2006 stands out to me on paper, I don't know of any players on this team playing college football at any level

Dane Conwell was at Indiana for maybe a year, never played and then transferred to Cal U of Pa where he never played

they went undefeated but outside of the state title game where Liberty looked like the worst finalist ever, they never really looked dominant and I saw them play 4 times that season


any other teams stand out? maybe Mckeesport in 2005? how did they lose to Highlands during the season a mediocre AAA team? Neshaminy in 2001? Liberty in 2008?

 

[RoverNation05]

I’ll have more tomorrow when I can put some stuff together - the answer is unequivocally 1988 Pittsburgh Central Catholic. They were the 8th seed (last team in) to the WPIAL playoffs after a 6-2-2 regular season, and were 0-2-1 in their last three games before the playoffs. Shocked North Hills in the first round, beat North Allegheny in WPIAL semis, then got shut out by Upper St. Clair in the WPIAL finals.

So how did they win a state title? Because this was the first year of the state tournament (and setting up a playoff was mega controversial) teams had to decide the summer before if they would participate. Upper St. Clair said they would not compete past WPIALs, so PCC as the runner-up, got to go from Region 4, which was the WPIAL. Then they beat Brashear in semis and a good Cedar Cliff team (Kyle Brady and Tom Kirchhoff) to win. Upper St Clair went on to win the next year.

That PCC team had Todd Orlando as their star, who played at Wisconsin and has gone on to some game as a college defensive coordinator. He’s the only notable college player - though the JV quarterback was Joe Moorhead (I think he was a freshman?).

That’s obviously a special circumstance as year one of the playoffs, but I’ll look at others.

I will defend the honor of the 2008 Liberty team, interesting talent make-up. They had four guys that made NFL camps (Devin Street got drafted and played a couple years with the Cowboys, Levi Brown was a UDFA who lasted a season with the Ravens, and Anthony Gonzalez and Jarrod West both were UDFAs who were cut in the preseason). I think it’s that team and SJP are the only teams with four pros. But those were the o only four FBS guys on the team. They had a linebacker who was a good player at Duquesne, then a couple DII/III guys. But one loss champ that avenged their loss to North Penn in the eastern final, and had an elite HS quarterback in Gonzalez.

I need to find my McKeesport write up, I’m pretty sure they played their JVs against Highlands because it was a make-up game. I’ll copy/paste that when I get it.

 

[RoverNation05]

“But before the playoffs, there was the pesky matter of the Highlands suspended game. Because they started before weather intervened, under WPIAL rules the game had to be played. The only date left for scheduling make-ups was three days before the WPIAL playoffs were set to begin. With McKeesport already clinched and Highlands a meager 2-6, the Tigers opted to play their JV and freshman team during the makeup. They lost 26-7, but the game had no effect on playoff seeding.”

 

[Stalker]

“But before the playoffs, there was the pesky matter of the Highlands suspended game. Because they started before weather intervened, under WPIAL rules the game had to be played. The only date left for scheduling make-ups was three days before the WPIAL playoffs were set to begin. With McKeesport already clinched and Highlands a meager 2-6, the Tigers opted to play their JV and freshman team during the makeup. They lost 26-7, but the game had no effect on playoff seeding.”

Rover, you did USC way back....2019 State Playoff Project or something. I have it somewhere in my Wpial files but imagine you do to, if it's not online.

 

[Stalker]

timing is everything in life, sometimes the stars align perfectly for teams that were good but not quite great and they end up winning it all

Upper St. Clair 2006 stands out to me on paper, I don't know of any players on this team playing college football at any level

Dane Conwell was at Indiana for maybe a year, never played and then transferred to Cal U of Pa where he never played

they went undefeated but outside of the state title game where Liberty looked like the worst finalist ever, they never really looked dominant and I saw them play 4 times that season


any other teams stand out? maybe Mckeesport in 2005? how did they lose to Highlands during the season a mediocre AAA team? Neshaminy in 2001? Liberty in 2008?

BP....definitely not McKeesport who had to play a make up-delayed game with Highlands just days before the playoffs and started frosh - jvs. Points didn't factor into playoff standings.
I was doing a scaled down version of the writeups then and remember that season well as a D3 guy and feeling McDevitt was close to being a shoe-in but lost Rb LeSean McCoy earlier in season to Harrisburg then lost to a pretty solid McKeesport team by a point. They ran a wicked Flexbone many teams had difficulty with.

 

[Hausmann1978]

2002 parkland didn't have D1 talent other then Austin Scott and the 2001 neshimany didn't have a ton of D1 talent either and how many games did they win by less then a TD.

 

[CAMoleskinner]

Neshaminy 2001 - the "Cardiac Kids".

They won six by a TD or less with margins of victories in those game being 1, 6, 2, 1, 5 and 6 points. And playing only 14 games that year (Bensalem was a forfeit owing to a teacher's strike) those 6 wins represent almost half of their wins. Then with two more games being won by 9 and 10 points respectively the average margin in those 8 wins was under a TD at 5 points (a bunch of them were comeback wins - like 4 or 5).

Yikes!

But nonetheless they did take down all comers (and yes, I know Breaston tweaked his ankle in the final but those are the breaks).

And they were a little light on D1 talent with their place kicker ultimately making the most noise at that plateau (Kevin Kelly -- Penn State) although they had a few other guys that got around a bit at the lower levels (their big gun -- Jamar Brittingham -- ended up with pretty much every running back record you could claim at Bloomsburg -- he also had an issue with grades which caused him some issues at D1 -- while the Atlanta Falcons gave him a solid look-see post-college but I think he was a tad slow for the "bigs").

Go 'Skins!!

 

[Fletchster1]

That 2001 game was one for the ages. Skins took it to those Wolverines on a perfect night for PA high school football.

 

[Stalker]

I was there and it was some nasty, nasty weather; mid field mud was deep and it was cold! Even game with Breaston coming back in 2nd half. But I don't think Woody was ready for such a potent power football team. Skins had a fine sizeable line. And they used two BIG fullbacks with Brittingham a lot. What a miserable night. But likeFletchster1 said....a perfect night for PA HS FB.

 

[steelcurtain55.]

Breaston had at least 10 fumbled snaps.

That game on a dry field is very different.

Neshaminy was like a group of Clydesdales. Woody High were thoroughbreds.

 

[Fletchster1]

6 fumbled snaps, but Wolverines recovered them all. Game could have got ugly if the Skins got a few of them.
Weather didn’t seem to bother Wiater (and Brittingham) as he did throw it a bit in that game.

 

[D1 Transplant]

Breaston had at least 10 fumbled snaps.

That game on a dry field is very different.

Neshaminy was like a group of Clydesdales. Woody High were thoroughbreds.

I agree. Neshaminy scored 21 points on that field, imagine how many they score on a dry field.

 

[Stalker]

If we go with "what ifs" (fumbles, dry field, etc) you have to go with Breaston healthy the entire game....on a dry field....and their touchdown called back.
There are a few "what ifs" in Neshaminy beating Cumberland Valley 25-19 in semi as well (super game!) but I'll be nice to my D1 friends and let that one slide. One thing for sure, the Skins win prevented a WPIAL sweep.

 

[Fletchster1]

Agreed. Relying on QB right and QB left has certain risks associated with it; Breaston was a special talent that was getting hit a bit that game.

That Skins-CV game was a great one. CV had it under control early, but the Skins pulled it out in the end. Huge 2nd have comeback.

 

[Relayer]

Neshaminy in 2001 is not even close to one of the worst teams in PIAA history. It's almost insulting. Forget they finished 9th in the country by USA Today.

FWIW, here's my $.02. All those close games in the Suburban One League is because the league was stacked that season. Remember, back in 2001 we had the stupid subregional that had to include D2 and D4, and only 8 teams qualified. The SOL had 4 teams finish at 7-3: CB-East, CB-West, Pennridge and North Penn. They all beat up on each other in the regular season. Only East qualified as the 8th seed and got Neshaminy again in the first round.

Meanwhile we had schools like Cheltenham, Abington Heights, Conestoga and Quakertown in the field of 8. All those schools would lose every game to the five SOL schools mentioned above. To strengthen my argument, Neshaminy dominated Downingtown and Conestoga in the district semis and final.

For the record I was at every Neshaminy playoff game that season. The offense was damn good. Skill players Brittingham and Enis made the Big 33 game, Mullin was a stud at TE and Waiter was a great HS QB. Hell, he threw for 157 in the title game during a monsoon.

I have that Nesh-CV game on a VCR tape somewhere around here. I believe Stalker is probably referring to the executed fake punt pulled off by CV. Seems there was a phantom penalty on CV and the big gain was called back. To this day I still don't know what the penalty was. Does it change the final score, who knows?

 

[BradlyPitt]

Neshaminy in 2001 is not even close to one of the worst teams in PIAA history. It's almost insulting. Forget they finished 9th in the country by USA Today.

I don't think that means anything, I mean Woodland Hills was ranked 2nd in the nation before they played Parkland in 2002

 

[Stalker]

I don't think that means anything, I mean Woodland Hills was ranked 2nd in the nation before they played Parkland in 2002

Not trying to rain on anyone’s parade but the question of “worst state champion” is almost a misnomer to awkward, like asking “which one of the beauty contestants is the least attractive?” I’m with Relayer that it is DEFINITELY not the 01 Skins or USC 06.

Note to BradlyPitt……..
** About not knowing of any player from USC “playing college ball at any level”……..USC had at least 8-9 recruited to play college ball; Harvard, Dequesne, Wittenberg, Indy, Rich, CMellon, etc, etc.
** Also mentioned they never looked dominant in the 4 games you saw. If we’re talking the same year….2006….stats show them winning at least 6 reg sea games by 18, 21, 27, 29, 31, 33 points. They also beat playoff opponents at +20/g, teams with combined W/L of 66-23 (63-16 minus Plum). Impressive numbers/margins, finishing 16-0 with an average score of 31-11 is in my view dominating, coached by one of PA’s greats in Coach Render.

 

[BradlyPitt]

Not trying to rain on anyone’s parade but the question of “worst state champion” is almost a misnomer to awkward, like asking “which one of the beauty contestants is the least attractive?” I’m with Relayer that it is DEFINITELY not the 01 Skins or USC 06.

Note to BradlyPitt……..
** About not knowing of any player from USC “playing college ball at any level”……..USC had at least 8-9 recruited to play college ball; Harvard, Dequesne, Wittenberg, Indy, Rich, CMellon, etc, etc.
** Also mentioned they never looked dominant in the 4 games you saw. If we’re talking the same year….2006….stats show them winning at least 6 reg sea games by 18, 21, 27, 29, 31, 33 points. They also beat playoff opponents at +20/g, teams with combined W/L of 66-23 (63-16 minus Plum). Impressive numbers/margins, finishing 16-0 with an average score of 31-11 is in my view dominating, coached by one of PA’s greats in Coach Render.

Why is it awkward? Every year I see a new article ranking all the Super Bowl champs, somebody has to be picked dead last. Somebody places last in a beauty contest right? So who do you think is the worst? People always ask who was the best so why not ask who is the worst?

who on 2006 USC played college ball? I know Pat Mcshane was at worst their 2nd best player and he didn't play anywhere

those scores you listed aren't mercy rule scores, and there are tomato cans on every schedule even in 2006

I saw them play North Allegheny in the semifinals I think they won by 17, Penn Hills in the Wpial finals, Harrisburg in the state semis, and Liberty in the state finals.

Penn Hills and Harrisburg games could've gone either way, Penn Hills game was very close and that was a young Penn Hills team that arguably overachieved considering they had a lot of young kids and didn't meet expectations in the next seasons. Harrisburg might have won that game if they knew the rules on punt returns as well as Taylor Everett did.

Not taking anything away from them, I'd rather be the worst champion than the best team that didn't win the state like Woodland Hills in the late 90's early 2000's or any other team you could make an argument for

As for Jim Render, I have known literally a dozen or so guys that played for him and all of them hated his guts as a human being and said he's a poor motivator and decent at best coach. Most opposing coaches hate his guts too so that sounds believable to me, just shaking hands after the game is like trying to pull his teeth. People often assume that rich white kids can't be good football players so he gets more credit based on that.

 

[Hausmann1978]

Why is it awkward? Every year I see a new article ranking all the Super Bowl champs, somebody has to be picked dead last. Somebody places last in a beauty contest right? So who do you think is the worst? People always ask who was the best so why not ask who is the worst?

who on 2006 USC played college ball? I know Pat Mcshane was at worst their 2nd best player and he didn't play anywhere

those scores you listed aren't mercy rule scores, and there are tomato cans on every schedule even in 2006

I saw them play North Allegheny in the semifinals I think they won by 17, Penn Hills in the Wpial finals, Harrisburg in the state semis, and Liberty in the state finals.

Penn Hills and Harrisburg games could've gone either way, Penn Hills game was very close and that was a young Penn Hills team that arguably overachieved considering they had a lot of young kids and didn't meet expectations in the next seasons. Harrisburg might have won that game if they knew the rules on punt returns as well as Taylor Everett did.

Not taking anything away from them, I'd rather be the worst champion than the best team that didn't win the state like Woodland Hills in the late 90's early 2000's or any other team you could make an argument for

As for Jim Render, I have known literally a dozen or so guys that played for him and all of them hated his guts as a human being and said he's a poor motivator and decent at best coach. Most opposing coaches hate his guts too so that sounds believable to me, just shaking hands after the game is like trying to pull his teeth. People often assume that rich white kids can't be good football players so he gets more credit based on that.

Coach Render is a legend. Do his players and opposing coaches hate his guts like CV coach recruits and their players dope. Also who assumes white kids can't ball? All this is nonsense.

 

[Stalker]

Why is it awkward? Every year I see a new article ranking all the Super Bowl champs, somebody has to be picked dead last. Somebody places last in a beauty contest right? So who do you think is the worst? People always ask who was the best so why not ask who is the worst?

who on 2006 USC played college ball? I know Pat Mcshane was at worst their 2nd best player and he didn't play anywhere

those scores you listed aren't mercy rule scores, and there are tomato cans on every schedule even in 2006

I saw them play North Allegheny in the semifinals I think they won by 17, Penn Hills in the Wpial finals, Harrisburg in the state semis, and Liberty in the state finals.

Penn Hills and Harrisburg games could've gone either way, Penn Hills game was very close and that was a young Penn Hills team that arguably overachieved considering they had a lot of young kids and didn't meet expectations in the next seasons. Harrisburg might have won that game if they knew the rules on punt returns as well as Taylor Everett did.

Not taking anything away from them, I'd rather be the worst champion than the best team that didn't win the state like Woodland Hills in the late 90's early 2000's or any other team you could make an argument for

As for Jim Render, I have known literally a dozen or so guys that played for him and all of them hated his guts as a human being and said he's a poor motivator and decent at best coach. Most opposing coaches hate his guts too so that sounds believable to me, just shaking hands after the game is like trying to pull his teeth. People often assume that rich white kids can't be good football players so he gets more credit based on that.

Bradly….my answers are ****asterisked**** following your input.

Why is it awkward? Every year I see a new article ranking all the Super Bowl champs, somebody has to be picked dead last. Somebody places last in a beauty contest right? So who do you think is the worst? People always ask who was the best so why not ask who is the worst?

**** It's awkward looking for a "worst champion" not just because it's an oxymoron but because you absolutely cannot compare different eras. Good luck finding similarities between St. Joe's - CB West, McKeesport - Pine Richland.

Who on 2006 USC played college ball? I know Pat Mcshane was at worst their 2nd best player and he didn't play anywhere those scores you listed aren't mercy rule scores, and there are tomato cans on every schedule even in 2006

**** Grant Serdy, Adam Chrissis, David Shine and others were recruited, Sakoian, Fraudin, etc. No mystery, do a google search. There are “tomato cans” on practically any schedule.
**** You’re saying a game has to be mercy ruled to show dominance? Heck of a premise. All the stats, margins and numbers are easily researched to see their dominance.


I saw them play North Allegheny in the semifinals I think they won by 17, Penn Hills in the Wpial finals, Harrisburg in the state semis, and Liberty in the state finals.

**** I’m not questioning your honesty in seeing games.
** Note: they did not play Harrisburg (10-2) in the semifinal; they played St Coll (12-3), won 28-20. But they did play and lose to Hbg in a Mid Penn division game 32-27.

Penn Hills and Harrisburg games could've gone either way, Penn Hills game was very close and that was a young Penn Hills team that arguably overachieved considering they had a lot of young kids and didn't meet expectations in the next seasons. Harrisburg might have won that game if they knew the rules on punt returns as well as Taylor Everett did. Not taking anything away from them, I'd rather be the worst champion than the best team that didn't win the state like Woodland Hills in the late 90's early 2000's or any other team you could make an argument for

**** Many games could have gone either way. But we’re not talking “what ifs” of which there are millions. If Columbus took a left turn he would have discovered Antarctica. You can’t analyze like that!

As for Jim Render, I have known literally a dozen or so guys that played for him and all of them hated his guts as a human being and said he's a poor motivator and decent at best coach. Most opposing coaches hate his guts too so that sounds believable to me, just shaking hands after the game is like trying to pull his teeth. People often assume that rich white kids can't be good football players so he gets more credit based on that.

**** Render was one of PA’s greatest coaches whether he was loved or reviled and is the winningest coach in WPIAL history at 406-141-6. To suggest he’s a poor motivator is laughable. Unmotivated players do not perform at the level his teams performed over many, many years. Sounds like you have a grudge against him saying “you know literally dozens or so guys that hated his guts” Dozens!?!?
**** I’m at a loss to respond to your saying “People often assume that rich white kids can't be good football players so he gets more credit based on that.” But I do know white men can’t jump, except Woody Harrelson. Saw it in a movie.

 

[Hausmann1978]

Bradly….my answers are ****asterisked**** following your input.

Why is it awkward? Every year I see a new article ranking all the Super Bowl champs, somebody has to be picked dead last. Somebody places last in a beauty contest right? So who do you think is the worst? People always ask who was the best so why not ask who is the worst?

**** It's awkward looking for a "worst champion" not just because it's an oxymoron but because you absolutely cannot compare different eras. Good luck finding similarities between St. Joe's - CB West, McKeesport - Pine Richland.

Who on 2006 USC played college ball? I know Pat Mcshane was at worst their 2nd best player and he didn't play anywhere those scores you listed aren't mercy rule scores, and there are tomato cans on every schedule even in 2006

**** Grant Serdy, Adam Chrissis, David Shine and others were recruited, Sakoian, Fraudin, etc. No mystery, do a google search. There are “tomato cans” on practically any schedule.
**** You’re saying a game has to be mercy ruled to show dominance? Heck of a premise. All the stats, margins and numbers are easily researched to see their dominance.


I saw them play North Allegheny in the semifinals I think they won by 17, Penn Hills in the Wpial finals, Harrisburg in the state semis, and Liberty in the state finals.

**** I’m not questioning your honesty in seeing games.
** Note: they did not play Harrisburg (10-2) in the semifinal; they played St Coll (12-3), won 28-20. But they did play and lose to Hbg in a Mid Penn division game 32-27.

Penn Hills and Harrisburg games could've gone either way, Penn Hills game was very close and that was a young Penn Hills team that arguably overachieved considering they had a lot of young kids and didn't meet expectations in the next seasons. Harrisburg might have won that game if they knew the rules on punt returns as well as Taylor Everett did. Not taking anything away from them, I'd rather be the worst champion than the best team that didn't win the state like Woodland Hills in the late 90's early 2000's or any other team you could make an argument for

**** Many games could have gone either way. But we’re not talking “what ifs” of which there are millions. If Columbus took a left turn he would have discovered Antarctica. You can’t analyze like that!

As for Jim Render, I have known literally a dozen or so guys that played for him and all of them hated his guts as a human being and said he's a poor motivator and decent at best coach. Most opposing coaches hate his guts too so that sounds believable to me, just shaking hands after the game is like trying to pull his teeth. People often assume that rich white kids can't be good football players so he gets more credit based on that.

**** Render was one of PA’s greatest coaches whether he was loved or reviled and is the winningest coach in WPIAL history at 406-141-6. To suggest he’s a poor motivator is laughable. Unmotivated players do not perform at the level his teams performed over many, many years. Sounds like you have a grudge against him saying “you know literally dozens or so guys that hated his guts” Dozens!?!?
**** I’m at a loss to respond to your saying “People often assume that rich white kids can't be good football players so he gets more credit based on that.” But I do know white men can’t jump, except Woody Harrelson. Saw it in a movie.

Well said stalker.

 

[RoverNation05]

One of my favorite sayings we use in Hershey all the time is - "do you know what they call the worst state champ of all time? A state champ." I'd much rather be the worst champ than the best team not to win it. But there absolutely is such a thing as being on the bottom of the list of champs - out of the 35 4A/6A champs, somebody has to be 35. Again, I think it's pretty clearly 1988 Pittsburgh Central Catholic in that 35 spot, but somebody has to be 34, which seems to be the crux of this conversation.

Looking at teams that didn't have a ton of next level talent:

• 1991 CB West only had 3 FBS and 1 FCS player, and one of those FBS guys was a sophomore part time player (Todd Volitis who went to Va Tech).
• 1992 Cumberland Valley had two FBS guys (but they were monsters in Jon Ritchie and Askari Adams), then just one FCS player (Matt Gaumer went to James Madison, but was just a sophomore on the state title team).
• 1994 McKeesport also followed the superstar model, with Brandon Short as a Parade All American, then two other FBS (Roger Wilson and Jermain Cromardie, both Kansas) and one FCS player (Saeon Coleman - Morehead State).
• 2001 Neshaminy had three FBS players (counting Brittingham signing with Rutgers, even though he ended up a non-DI qualifier and had to go to pre school, plus Kelly at Penn State and Mike Loveland who played at Temple).
• 2002 Parkland just had two FBS scholarship guys (Austin Scott and Adam Atiyeh - though Atiyeh was a sophomore on this team) and three FCS guys, plus two who walked on at FBS programs.
• 2005 McKeesport put four guys in FBS/FCS, but it was their entire backfield (Princeton, Penn State, West Virginia, Youngstown State).
• As mentioned, 2006 Upper St. Clair only had one FBS player (Dane Conwell - Indiana), but put five guys on FCS rosters (Grant Serdy - Princeton; Adam Chrissis - Harvard; David Shine - Richmond; Jason Sakoian - Richmond; Ben Fraudin - Duquesne).
• 2009 LaSalle holds the distinction of not having any FBS players on the roster, but did put five on FCS teams (Delaware, Villanova, William & Mary, Lafayette, Penn).
• 2011 Central Dauphin only had three FBS/FCS players (Evan Schwann - Penn State; Zayd Issah signed with Penn State but never played, and Zach Wilk - Cornell).

In terms of close games - it's 1994 McKeesport, 2001 Neshaminy and 2011 Central Dauphin played the most close games in their title run.

• McKeesport playoff run was 14-0, 14-7, 21-14, 7-6, and 17-14.
• The 2001 Neshaminy team had six games within seven points, which is highly unusual for a big school champ.
• 2011 Central Dauphin won their first district playoff game 30-0 against a sub-.500 CD East, but then went 35-32, 28-21, 24-21, 23-20, and 14-7.

I don't know how this fits in, but the team with the worst blemish is 1996 Downingtown. Although they dominated most of their schedule, including the postseason, they got absolutely crushed by Allentown Central Catholic - 48-25, where they gave up over 300 rushing yards and got blown out by a team in a lower classification that didn't even win their district. That's probably the ugliest loss of any state champ.

As I look at this, I'm leaning towards 1994 McKeesport or 2011 Central Dauphin?

 

[BradlyPitt]

Coach Render is a legend. Do his players and opposing coaches hate his guts like CV coach recruits and their players dope. Also who assumes white kids can't ball? All this is nonsense.

yes

many people assume that, which is why i said it

nonsense? ok guy that saw many of Cathedral Prep's games in person yet refers to them as "Erie Prep" LOL

 

[BradlyPitt]

Bradly….my answers are ****asterisked**** following your input.

Why is it awkward? Every year I see a new article ranking all the Super Bowl champs, somebody has to be picked dead last. Somebody places last in a beauty contest right? So who do you think is the worst? People always ask who was the best so why not ask who is the worst?

**** It's awkward looking for a "worst champion" not just because it's an oxymoron but because you absolutely cannot compare different eras. Good luck finding similarities between St. Joe's - CB West, McKeesport - Pine Richland.

again they compare different eras all the time in pretty much everything else, how many times has there been a "best team" thread? many times and that would be comparing eras too

Who on 2006 USC played college ball? I know Pat Mcshane was at worst their 2nd best player and he didn't play anywhere those scores you listed aren't mercy rule scores, and there are tomato cans on every schedule even in 2006

**** Grant Serdy, Adam Chrissis, David Shine and others were recruited, Sakoian, Fraudin, etc. No mystery, do a google search. There are “tomato cans” on practically any schedule.
**** You’re saying a game has to be mercy ruled to show dominance? Heck of a premise. All the stats, margins and numbers are easily researched to see their dominance.

who were they recruited by? if you have the answers why do I need to do a google search?

i wasn't overly impressed by them sorry

I saw them play North Allegheny in the semifinals I think they won by 17, Penn Hills in the Wpial finals, Harrisburg in the state semis, and Liberty in the state finals.

**** I’m not questioning your honesty in seeing games.
** Note: they did not play Harrisburg (10-2) in the semifinal; they played St Coll (12-3), won 28-20. But they did play and lose to Hbg in a Mid Penn division game 32-27.

the game was on tv, sorry i got the team name wrong it's been 15 years so sometimes little details are forgotten

Penn Hills and Harrisburg games could've gone either way, Penn Hills game was very close and that was a young Penn Hills team that arguably overachieved considering they had a lot of young kids and didn't meet expectations in the next seasons. Harrisburg might have won that game if they knew the rules on punt returns as well as Taylor Everett did. Not taking anything away from them, I'd rather be the worst champion than the best team that didn't win the state like Woodland Hills in the late 90's early 2000's or any other team you could make an argument for

**** Many games could have gone either way. But we’re not talking “what ifs” of which there are millions. If Columbus took a left turn he would have discovered Antarctica. You can’t analyze like that!

we talk what ifs all the time, for whatever reason you think it's wrong to talk what ifs for high school teams

As for Jim Render, I have known literally a dozen or so guys that played for him and all of them hated his guts as a human being and said he's a poor motivator and decent at best coach. Most opposing coaches hate his guts too so that sounds believable to me, just shaking hands after the game is like trying to pull his teeth. People often assume that rich white kids can't be good football players so he gets more credit based on that.

**** Render was one of PA’s greatest coaches whether he was loved or reviled and is the winningest coach in WPIAL history at 406-141-6. To suggest he’s a poor motivator is laughable. Unmotivated players do not perform at the level his teams performed over many, many years. Sounds like you have a grudge against him saying “you know literally dozens or so guys that hated his guts” Dozens!?!?
**** I’m at a loss to respond to your saying “People often assume that rich white kids can't be good football players so he gets more credit based on that.” But I do know white men can’t jump, except Woody Harrelson. Saw it in a movie.

i'm telling you what his players told me, the kids at USC tend to be highly motivated themselves as they come from families that work very hard and demand a lot from their kids, they are also highly intelligent (hence them being rich) so they are easy to teach and coach

i don't have a grudge against him, though many players that played for him do, which is why i said what i said

the NFL is like 70 - 80 percent black, stop being so sensitive

 

[BradlyPitt]

One of my favorite sayings we use in Hershey all the time is - "do you know what they call the worst state champ of all time? A state champ." I'd much rather be the worst champ than the best team not to win it. But there absolutely is such a thing as being on the bottom of the list of champs - out of the 35 4A/6A champs, somebody has to be 35. Again, I think it's pretty clearly 1988 Pittsburgh Central Catholic in that 35 spot, but somebody has to be 34, which seems to be the crux of this conversation.

Looking at teams that didn't have a ton of next level talent:

• 1991 CB West only had 3 FBS and 1 FCS player, and one of those FBS guys was a sophomore part time player (Todd Volitis who went to Va Tech).
• 1992 Cumberland Valley had two FBS guys (but they were monsters in Jon Ritchie and Askari Adams), then just one FCS player (Matt Gaumer went to James Madison, but was just a sophomore on the state title team).
• 1994 McKeesport also followed the superstar model, with Brandon Short as a Parade All American, then two other FBS (Roger Wilson and Jermain Cromardie, both Kansas) and one FCS player (Saeon Coleman - Morehead State).
• 2001 Neshaminy had three FBS players (counting Brittingham signing with Rutgers, even though he ended up a non-DI qualifier and had to go to pre school, plus Kelly at Penn State and Mike Loveland who played at Temple).
• 2002 Parkland just had two FBS scholarship guys (Austin Scott and Adam Atiyeh - though Atiyeh was a sophomore on this team) and three FCS guys, plus two who walked on at FBS programs.
• 2005 McKeesport put four guys in FBS/FCS, but it was their entire backfield (Princeton, Penn State, West Virginia, Youngstown State).
• As mentioned, 2006 Upper St. Clair only had one FBS player (Dane Conwell - Indiana), but put five guys on FCS rosters (Grant Serdy - Princeton; Adam Chrissis - Harvard; David Shine - Richmond; Jason Sakoian - Richmond; Ben Fraudin - Duquesne).
• 2009 LaSalle holds the distinction of not having any FBS players on the roster, but did put five on FCS teams (Delaware, Villanova, William & Mary, Lafayette, Penn).
• 2011 Central Dauphin only had three FBS/FCS players (Evan Schwann - Penn State; Zayd Issah signed with Penn State but never played, and Zach Wilk - Cornell).

In terms of close games - it's 1994 McKeesport, 2001 Neshaminy and 2011 Central Dauphin played the most close games in their title run.

• McKeesport playoff run was 14-0, 14-7, 21-14, 7-6, and 17-14.
• The 2001 Neshaminy team had six games within seven points, which is highly unusual for a big school champ.
• 2011 Central Dauphin won their first district playoff game 30-0 against a sub-.500 CD East, but then went 35-32, 28-21, 24-21, 23-20, and 14-7.

I don't know how this fits in, but the team with the worst blemish is 1996 Downingtown. Although they dominated most of their schedule, including the postseason, they got absolutely crushed by Allentown Central Catholic - 48-25, where they gave up over 300 rushing yards and got blown out by a team in a lower classification that didn't even win their district. That's probably the ugliest loss of any state champ.

As I look at this, I'm leaning towards 1994 McKeesport or 2011 Central Dauphin?

good post

 

[Hausmann1978]

Coach Render belongs on the Mt Rushmore of Pennsylvania high school football coaches. He has 400+ wins and 2 state titles and many wpial titles. Not to mention the hours of his time he's dessicated to his players and the number of kids he helped get their college paid for. Bradpitt loves trolling on here. I think kids and coaches hate coach Render as much as central valley cheats and dopes. Bradpitt go troll somewhere else.

 

[BradlyPitt]

Coach Render belongs on the Mt Rushmore of Pennsylvania high school football coaches. He has 400+ wins and 2 state titles and many wpial titles. Not to mention the hours of his time he's dessicated to his players and the number of kids he helped get their college paid for. Bradpitt loves trolling on here. I think kids and coaches hate coach Render as much as central valley cheats and dopes. Bradpitt go troll somewhere else.

calm down Hauswoman, go cry somewhere else

 

[BradlyPitt]

Jim Roth
Mike Pettine
George Curry
Bill Cherpak/Bob Palko

those guys alone are more deserving of Mt. Rushmore, heck Eric Kasperowichz has accomplished almost as much as Render since 2014

 

[Hausmann1978]

Jim Roth
Mike Pettine
George Curry
Bill Cherpak/Bob Palko

those guys alone are more deserving of Mt. Rushmore, heck Eric Kasperowichz has accomplished almost as much as Render since 2014

Hate to tell you but coach Render has more wins then all those coaches you named. A matter of fact no coach in wpial history has more wins then coach Render.

 

[Hausmann1978]

Here you go bradpitt. https://apnews.com/article/57e3d22a33514eb2b987741daea61c1f

 

[16th&Georgetown]

Pettine spanked Render in state final

 

[Stalker]

again they compare different eras all the time in pretty much everything else, how many times has there been a "best team" thread? many times and that would be comparing eras too




who were they recruited by? if you have the answers why do I need to do a google search?

i wasn't overly impressed by them sorry



the game was on tv, sorry i got the team name wrong it's been 15 years so sometimes little details are forgotten


we talk what ifs all the time, for whatever reason you think it's wrong to talk what ifs for high school teams



i'm telling you what his players told me, the kids at USC tend to be highly motivated themselves as they come from families that work very hard and demand a lot from their kids, they are also highly intelligent (hence them being rich) so they are easy to teach and coach

i don't have a grudge against him, though many players that played for him do, which is why i said what i said

the NFL is like 70 - 80 percent black, stop being so sensitive

Ok BradlyPitt.
I’ll bite. What is your list of worst champions, a “rank and order” of teams. What are the rules, how are you measuring one against another? I think it’s an impossibility but let’s see what you come up with.

 

[Hausmann1978]

Pettine spanked Render in state final

Render has 22 wpial titles two state championship but should be 3. USC opted not to participate in the 88 piaa playoffs and hes the only pa coach with 400 wins. I don't know how bradpitt can say Kaspervovich did as much as render. He obviously doesn't know wpial football.

 

[Stalker]

Render has 22 wpial titles two state championship but should be 3. USC opted not to participate in the 88 piaa playoffs and hes the only pa coach with 400 wins. I don't know how bradpitt can say Kaspervovich did as much as render. He obviously doesn't know wpial football.

Hard arguing +400 wins, HIGHEST in the state. It's a real and legit measurement no one has equaled.
Coach may have given it a run but we'll likely lose him to college ball. He was a monster at Pine and it would have been nice seeing that play out.

 

[new2pa]

I'm not getting into this, but I think Render / USC has 5 WPIAL titles, not 22.

 

[Hausmann1978]

I'm not getting into this, but I think Render / USC has 5 WPIAL titles, not 22.

You are correct that was a typo. 88, 89, 92, 97, 06.

 

[Hausmann1978]

Hard arguing +400 wins, HIGHEST in the state. It's a real and legit measurement no one has equaled.
Coach may have given it a run but we'll likely lose him to college ball. He was a monster at Pine and it would have been nice seeing that play out.

Oh if he stuck around he had a chance to do great things but to say he accomplished what render did with only 7 seasons is ridiculous and to say he doesn't belong on the mount Rushmore of wpial coaches is even more asinine. Here's 3 guaranteed render, Novak, and Palko. I'm also just talking the bigger classifications and playoff era because I know Braddock and new castle had a hell of a run way back in the day.

 

[BradlyPitt]

Hate to tell you but coach Render has more wins then all those coaches you named. A matter of fact no coach in wpial history has more wins then coach Render.

he was the coach for what 40 some years? let Cherp or Palko coach as long as him and i promise they will pass him easily

all of those guys have more championships, which is what matters

 

[BradlyPitt]

Ok BradlyPitt.
I’ll bite. What is your list of worst champions, a “rank and order” of teams. What are the rules, how are you measuring one against another? I think it’s an impossibility but let’s see what you come up with.

i already listed some in the first post, why can't you list yours?

how do i rank them? based on their amount of wins during the season, competition faced, margin of victory, college level players

some of these teams had one dimensional offenses, the teams that rarely threw the ball or had a non existent passing game I would not rank very high outside of the CB West teams

also the eye test, 2006 USC for example looked small for a state champion in the highest classification

how is it any more of an impossibility than ranking the best teams? it's all mostly opinion and no way of proving one way or the other, it's just an interesting discussion

do you worry about offending some team from 15 - 30 years ago or what? like 10 people read this forum, we're the only guys left on the planet that care about these discussions , if they are offended they should be flattered that somebody on the planet still remembers them lol

 

[BradlyPitt]

Render has 22 wpial titles two state championship but should be 3. USC opted not to participate in the 88 piaa playoffs and hes the only pa coach with 400 wins. I don't know how bradpitt can say Kaspervovich did as much as render. He obviously doesn't know wpial football.

so Joe Paterno is better than Nick Saban because he has more overall wins lol

just because Central won that state title doesn't automatically mean Render's USC team would've won it, that's why they play the games so he doesn't get credit for that

in 2003 Render said in the Post Gazette he thought the season should end at the WPIAL championships