This message board is as dead
- Thread starter sammyk
- Start date
Sammy,
I think the posters who are left on this board should decide as a group--to the extent that's possible--to move to another board. I like the way this board allows topics to be separated, but without a moderator there's too much nonsense that gets posted.
Here is the PA Sports Board. Its not much more hopping right now though. Much more WPIAL and small school focused, but good. The threading features aren't as nice IMO.
http://pasportsboard.net/PSB/index.php
Are there other options too?
http://pasportsboard.net/PSB/index.php
Are there other options too?
I've always loved this board. I would hate to see it go. If we could get maybe three or four more posters here like Relayer it would be ok. I think that's all it would take. Hopefully Sammy's post on this could get us going again.
Well I am one of the posters from way way back and I do not post on here much anymore mainly because of living in NC since 1998 I have lost touch with PA football. But I remember the days from 2003-20012 when this board was kicking. You had posters from all over with great input. Now this board is a shell of its former self
Sammy,
One of the problems here is the lack of a moderator, so we get posts advertising products, promoting political conspiracy theories, etc. I find it annoying. Also, lots of former regular posters (Blitz, Slam, Huck, some of the LaSalle guys, etc.) don't post any more for one reason or another and really don't seem to have been replaced by new posters. My guess is that younger people use other formats: Twitter, Snapchat, and things I've probably never heard of.
The real problem is the teams that generated the most feedback over the years-whether positive or negative feedback-are all former shells of themselves. Lasalle, Ridley, Neshaminy, Pennsbury, etc had legions of posters here. They also had many of posters rooting against them and there was always a dialogue back and forth. But when those teams struggle, or are mediocre, there is nothing really to talk about. 10 years ago, if Ridley got rid of their OC, there would be a hundred threads on it. Now, its just a yawn. I would say St Joe Prep still has a decent following here, but they are so good that there is nothing to talk about either.
A team like Garnet Valley is a wonderful program, competes year in year out for League and district titles. But they do not have 20 people here posting that played for GV 35 years ago that still are die hard fans.
A team like Garnet Valley is a wonderful program, competes year in year out for League and district titles. But they do not have 20 people here posting that played for GV 35 years ago that still are die hard fans.
couldn’t agree more. SoL has fallen hard. NPenn is not that good either. I can’t speak for Ridley or LaSalle but it appears the same.
Well, there is someone constantly posting stuff on the premium board. Do they not realize what little traffic they get is over here? To say it's a poorly run site is an understatement.
Also, we are in football's offseason. Not much is going on. I was going to start a wrestling thread last month but never got around to it.
Speaking of wrestling, this is the first big weekend of the post season. Here's hoping SE PA will bring home a few state titles.
Also, we are in football's offseason. Not much is going on. I was going to start a wrestling thread last month but never got around to it.
Speaking of wrestling, this is the first big weekend of the post season. Here's hoping SE PA will bring home a few state titles.
Here's another thought that applies not just to this board but to changes in HS football, especially in the Philly area.
I'm next to certain that nearly all the posters here are white men who are at least 15 years out of high school--with some, like me, a long way past 15 years. A big change nationally, as noted in the NY Times series on football, is that the number and percentage of white kids playing HS football is way down. I know SJP is not entirely typical, but it's not a complete outlier either. Under Brooks, the number of black kids rose a fair bit--Hobson, Jones, Friday, Peoples, etc. But the percentage of black kids on the team probably never got higher than 15-20%. (And think who were the outstanding running backs under Brooks: Ambrogi, Kaiser, Shaw, etc.) If you need to, take a look at a photo of the Prep team this past year and you'll know how much things have changed. (And think of who the running backs have been: Zaccheaus, Swift, Burrell, etc.) Also, look at the reduction in the number of players on the sidelines, and think of what that indicates. Who's not coming out to play football?
Others posting on here may certainly want to correct me, but my impression is that to varying degrees the same thing has been happening in other schools, especially those with high-profile football teams. When I think back to the CB West teams of the 90s or the North Penn teams of the early years of this century I see faces that are almost all white? Am I right?
In my case it means that the current Prep players are much less likely to come from the kind of elementary school and neighborhoods I came from and even that my much younger nephews came from. I don't object to this. I also don't think racism limited the number of black players in the past or that racism has anything to do with reduction of participation of "guys like us" on this board or with the falloff in attendance at games. BUT the culture of HS Football has changed with the change in the demographic profile of the kids playing the game, especially of the kids who are excelling in the game. Other things, like work patterns and social media, have changed the game as well, but I don't think anything matches the demographic change.
Well put; the game has changed. Demographics, more options and this win at almost no rules is a big part. We can’t bring back those old times, but only hope for something new that breaks trends. Maybe we’re just old guys. Peace.
Great Point Speed. I think if SEPA football had a few years of "new blood" that would also get more posters. There were also some sensational topics brought up here. Some of my favorites over the years
1- Gil Brooks
2- The PIAA and its take on open enrollment schools
3- Rick O'Brien's all SEPA team
4-Best Venues (my favorite, Ridley)
5- Mike Carey
This board was rocking during Brooks last few years as coach. Just mentioning his name on this board elicited a plethora of responses.
I believe the interest in the board has declined for a couple of reasons. First is the decline of participation in football. You see few teams with 75-90
players today. Even 6a teams have trouble fielding 40 players and JV teams, some are playing 9th graders on their varsities. Coaches turn over and few qualified candidates are there to take their place. Recruiting has also taken a toll. Pencil in the prep & wood for state titles every year and that takes away interest. It was not that long ago that Ryan & Judge were actually competitive in the PCL. District I teams play few out of district non league games, ( I went to Downingtown games where they Played Ryan, Malvern Prep, ACC) along with relining leagues so the bottom feeders can become competitive. .Fans need a map to fine their way to away games..
players today. Even 6a teams have trouble fielding 40 players and JV teams, some are playing 9th graders on their varsities. Coaches turn over and few qualified candidates are there to take their place. Recruiting has also taken a toll. Pencil in the prep & wood for state titles every year and that takes away interest. It was not that long ago that Ryan & Judge were actually competitive in the PCL. District I teams play few out of district non league games, ( I went to Downingtown games where they Played Ryan, Malvern Prep, ACC) along with relining leagues so the bottom feeders can become competitive. .Fans need a map to fine their way to away games..
A few thoughts:
Message board culture in general is declining with the rise of social media. Twitter can function the same as a board for conversation with a more curated network, Facebook you can share with all your friends, etc. That doesn’t just affect this site. At one point, I had a national (thematforums), state (wrestlingreport), and local (d11wrestling) board that I followed and posted on that had massive followings. Only the local one still has any posts, and it’s kept alive by about 10 of us essentially having a private conversation. Just as the internet has evolved, message boards are less necessary when there is more instant communication.
Following high school football is less fun that it used to be. Everybody knows who is going to win every classification. I follow Lehigh Valley football and closely know what’s going on and have opinions. But what does it really matter because the district champ is going to get killed in the first round of states, just like every year. And why are you - people from other districts - going to engage on what I post for teams that don’t matter at the state level. There’s nothing to debate, no suspense, nothing fun about the narrative arc of the season. SJP is four touchdowns better than everybody in the state next year, just like they were last year, and two years ago, and probably will be again in 2021. The dominance is great for them and fans of the program, but what’s the point of caring if you’re not from SJP or a parent, coach, or player from your program? And you can say that in four of the six classifications.
That gets back to Steve Powell’s old point about high school sports. Powell, Easton’s long time wrestling coach, always pointed out that people care because of the town vs town aspect. My community versus yours, we take pride in where we’re from and our way of life, and which one is better. That’s why gyms were packed for district finals or duals in January, but nobody goes to watch club duals or Fargo in the spring and summer when It’s just high level kids on all star teams. Fans care about the town vs town. At that goes away at the high school level too, so goes the engagement for people not directly involved. I’m not saying that’s good or bad, but it’s almost definitely true.
Message board culture in general is declining with the rise of social media. Twitter can function the same as a board for conversation with a more curated network, Facebook you can share with all your friends, etc. That doesn’t just affect this site. At one point, I had a national (thematforums), state (wrestlingreport), and local (d11wrestling) board that I followed and posted on that had massive followings. Only the local one still has any posts, and it’s kept alive by about 10 of us essentially having a private conversation. Just as the internet has evolved, message boards are less necessary when there is more instant communication.
Following high school football is less fun that it used to be. Everybody knows who is going to win every classification. I follow Lehigh Valley football and closely know what’s going on and have opinions. But what does it really matter because the district champ is going to get killed in the first round of states, just like every year. And why are you - people from other districts - going to engage on what I post for teams that don’t matter at the state level. There’s nothing to debate, no suspense, nothing fun about the narrative arc of the season. SJP is four touchdowns better than everybody in the state next year, just like they were last year, and two years ago, and probably will be again in 2021. The dominance is great for them and fans of the program, but what’s the point of caring if you’re not from SJP or a parent, coach, or player from your program? And you can say that in four of the six classifications.
That gets back to Steve Powell’s old point about high school sports. Powell, Easton’s long time wrestling coach, always pointed out that people care because of the town vs town aspect. My community versus yours, we take pride in where we’re from and our way of life, and which one is better. That’s why gyms were packed for district finals or duals in January, but nobody goes to watch club duals or Fargo in the spring and summer when It’s just high level kids on all star teams. Fans care about the town vs town. At that goes away at the high school level too, so goes the engagement for people not directly involved. I’m not saying that’s good or bad, but it’s almost definitely true.
Rover
A question: Is the dominance of SJP in the large school classification for the last seven years the main reason for the decline in the Lehigh Valley?
I don’t think It has a direct effect. I do think it’s less reason for the casual fan to get invested, and it’s made D11, even when it’s good, irrelevant at the state level because they’re not going to sniff a win over SJP. I think that would have the same effect on D1 or D3 if they were SJP’s quarterfinal opponent too. So is it a driver of the down cycle, no, but is it a driver of less fan interest (and message board engagement), absolutely.
Why is 6A football in the Valley worse? I think you have coaching catastrophes at Easton and Liberty, which should be marquee programs. A 4A school in Becahi is getting a lot of high level kids, but is also a place where I have major coaching questions for actually getting the best out of that talent. The most stable coaching situations are Nazareth and Freedom, which are smaller schools with less feeders and resources to be state level competitive, and Parkland, which has been winning even in down years because the Eastons and Liberty’s of the world can’t get their shit together.
schematically, Liberty, Becahi, Whitehall, and ACC were early adaptors to the spread, which gave them a leg up in the last decade, but now everybody does that. The move away from power football had forced philosophical shifts at Easton, Parkland, and some of the small school powers (Pen Argyl, northern Lehigh, NW Lehigh) with varying degrees of success. But I think the measuring stick has also changed. “Successful” used to be compared to the D3 and D1 champs, now the comparison is SJP and SJP only. I said this year, I think Nazareth could have played with Central Dauphin or DTW, but SJP was four TDs better than all of them. But Nazareth only saw SJP, while the other two saw each other first and advanced further than the Blue Eagles.
Rover, your points are all so well taken. I guess you could say that there is some parody overall in Pa HS football with the exception of SJP, Wood and Southern Columbia. But because of the dominance of these few teams it's kind of waned in fan appeal. I honestly think that Wood and SC could start taking a step down but it appears as though the Prep may be dominant well into the next decade. Maybe the PIAA should consider the 6A champ go out to play the WPIAL champ before D11. Maybe D12 should be made to work harder and travel more because they are all private. Other than that I can't find an immediate remedy here. But I can't end this post without mentioning how SC could have the gaul to want to stay as AA program. What criteria did the PIAA use when they granted the appeal? I don't understand it.
I don’t follow 1A, 2A, and 3A at all, so I’m not a good person to assess competitiveness levels there. But the 4A/old 3A class, you can pencil in ECP, McDevitt, and Imhotep (Wood before 6 classes) into the final four then pick a winner out of a hat. No others need apply. Wood in 5A, Prep in 6A, done deal. I don’t think there is an remedy, nor would I suggest one, it’s just the way the world is. I guess a fix would be a rotating bracket or seeds, neither I think will happen.
I think the one difference to years past is this - there have always and will always be dominant teams. Usually it’s because there are two classes stacked together in a school that are really good that can go on a multi year run (CB West in 97-00 had three classes that were excellent, plus Dave Armstrong a year ahead of those three, that’s the biggest anomaly). Then schools fall back for a few years, and because they’re good programs they build back up and have another peak. It’s the total lack of a cycle at the schools that have dominated, or more accurately, that the range of the cycle is so much higher competitively than the rest of the state, that I find frustrating. Again, it’s not wrong, nobody’s cheating. But it’s also a lot less fun as a fan.
From all I've heard and read, Wood's state title this year was a little freakish. They lost to Roman, after all, which is on the upswing but which which still couldn't give LaSalle a game the two times they played. And though Wood has most players returning next year they would hardly start the season as clear 5A favorites (if they were in 5A).
As for SJP, I think it's almost certain there will be a big dropoff after next year. The freshman and sophomore classes from last year are not close to the junior and senior classes in terms of talent. I have no idea how anyone could say they will be dominant beyond next year. Good, yes, and maybe very good, but I'd love someone to give specific reasons why they are likely to be more than that.
Rover, Not sure I understood your CB West 97-00 statement. However Armstrong was on the '97 team.
Tulla,
We love you brother...you go to great lengths to understate the current affairs that is SJP football. The fact is, there will be no drop off until further notice, let's not kid ourselves. SJP made a commitment year's ago when they hired Gabe that they would no longer play 2nd fiddle to anyone on the gridiron, certainly not in the PCL!!
I have it from a very good source in the industry that SJP has a major benefactor contributing $250K a year to a football earmarked endowment. The source of which the info is derived is a U. League brother/member, will protect his anonymity. LaSalle or anyone else in the PCL will never compete with that philanthropy absent 4-5 scholarships annually. LaSalle unfortunately has either been unable/unwilling to match that type of commitment, therefor has remained mostly disengaged from the football arms-race vs St. Joe's.
"Closer to home", have a friend/colleague who's 8th grade son is a talented FB/multi-sport student athlete. Older brother started and graduated from Prep during Gabe's regime, was honestly considering LS because of the other played sport and college potential. He's a good student. His grade school is not the longtime historic feeder to SJP, so his school choice was not a given. He sent me the following text a few weeks back:
"Hey XXX, my son is going to the Prep. Steinmetz and LaSalle said they had no money while Prep was offering $20,000. So it was a no-brainer. They are bringing in some really good players next year. Hope all is well with you"
I replied 20K total or per year, his reply: "per year".
Bottom line... SJP desires to be a national-brand highschool football program. PCL/state titles have become almost an afterthought, would be an upset of major proportions if they lose. i.e... Bosco/Bergen (NJ), Gorman (LV), St Frances (MD), Mater Dei/SJB (CA), IMG and the likes have operated in similar fashions over the years.
There's nothing wrong with the posture SJP has taken towards football, nothing illegitimate either. It's their right to operate as a private school as they desire. But if you feel there's going to be any real competition for them in SEPA (and in the state most years), one's not lucid to reality.
Tulla,
Have always had great respect for you over the years. Have articulated and supported your Alma mater with respect and grace with tntc posts on this forum. I have no animosity towards the Prep, if anything, it's become admiration. I'm now so many year's disengaged since my son's involvement. While I've done well for myself financially as approaching retirement...wish I was in a position to support LaSalle in a manner comparable to Prep's major benefactor (and others) but unfortunately it perils in comparison.
I'm a firm believer that a great high school football team (the most highly profiled sport) creates and drives so much school spirit and pride that immeasurable. There can be negatives though, if it's sole purpose overwhelms the remainder of the student body in their identity.
I wish your family well my friend...
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Thanks very much, yesman. You, Paul, and Romeo are great LaSalle guys.
Just a quick reply since I'm still working 3+ days a week.
The tuition at SJP next year is $25,100 (not including books, some fees, and transportation) so even if a student athlete's family gets a $20,000 scholarship (though that may not be the right term) there is still a chunk to pay.
You may be right that the school is committed to keeping the football program at or near the level it's been. Still, I think there will be at least some drop-off after next year. I don't think the Prep's ever had a class (including the one that had Reid, Runyan,and Zacchaeus and one that had Swift and Greene) with the likes of McCord, Harrison, Trotter, Hagans, and Cooper all in it.
I think the larger issue you touch on is important. There is at least a potential downside to building and maintaining such a program. It would be fairly easy for the program (and the kids who are part of it) to become somewhat disconnected from the rest of the school. The coaching staff work hard to limit the risk but it's not easy.
I also think the death of the WPIAL is hurting PA football. Western PA is bleeding people and the population loss is starting to catch up with the quality of football that is there. But back in 2002-2015 the WPIAL was still playing good football and had multiple teams in each classification that could compete for state titles. Not the case now.
Tulla, Just to be clear,Im a McDevitt guy,but have many LaSalle friends including Drew Gordan.When Drew left so program took a downturn and most know why he left , I am a supporter of the entire PCL and a few others. BTW keep an eye on Sam Brown this year,
SJP. Their incoming class has a number of kids that could start as freshmen. Wood is going to obviously struggle getting out of the districts now that they are 6A. I wouldn't be surprised if that was associated with Atkins leaving.
Tulla,
As I mentioned.. there will be no drop-off. They are continuing to load up for future classes.. and obviously have the $$$ and support to recruit and make it happen..
Just another example.. I guess this media announcement to a "high school commitment" is the new thing? Not just the talent, but the public presentation of it leading to more talent..
https://twitter.com/omillioa?lang=en
Thanks for the correction. I got the names, not the guys confused. I'm forgetting the name of the lineman I was picturing from the middle of the Books era: around 2002 or 2003. My memory may be playing tricks on me, but I think Prep teams in that era had half a dozen or so Black kids. To a fair degree the demographic changes on the Prep team mirror what's happening at other schools. According to the NYT series, the big falloff in the number of kids playing HS football is almost entirely a "white phenomenon."
