Oh it can happen and it should happen. Again let me and some of my buddies come on up from North Carolina and show you how it’s done. As Tony Montana said about Miami PA is a giant Pu$$y waiting to be ****ed and St joes is the only one getting some.
SJP-Nazareth
- Thread starter RoverNation05
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So do I -- that's why you're the Commissioner (and it's a pretty much carte blanche job with a seven year term while The King has "suggestive" powers only and the Head of the Church is limited to a moral view/righteous voice).
Rover asked above whether SJP alumni are happy with SJP winning state playoff game after state playoff game by huge margins. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but my sense is the school community as a whole would prefer more competitive games. How do I know? I've noted the number of listeners to the school's radio broadcasts; they're quite low. Also, from the images I've seen of the crowds at PIAA playoff games last year and this, it's pretty clear there are fewer "Prep people" there. I remember the huge crowd (7K, at least) at the PCL championship game at P-W in 2003 and (more to the point) the large crowds at the Neshaminy game in 2013 and the North Penn game in 2016--much more than were at the game yesterday. The LaSalle regular season game at Franklin Field can still attract a good crowd but that's because it's LaSalle and because of the location. There was a good size crowd in Ocean City for the IMG game. Was that largely because of the location?
I was hoping all the talk about PCC having an especially strong team this year was accurate. Now I'm hoping NA Tiger is right about the strength of NA. A state championship game shouldn't be over after the first quarter.
SJP will not always be as strong as they are this year. They may well not be as strong next year. They'll still be very good, which I'm happy about. Roman and LaSalle should both be better. The rest of PA?
I was hoping all the talk about PCC having an especially strong team this year was accurate. Now I'm hoping NA Tiger is right about the strength of NA. A state championship game shouldn't be over after the first quarter.
SJP will not always be as strong as they are this year. They may well not be as strong next year. They'll still be very good, which I'm happy about. Roman and LaSalle should both be better. The rest of PA?
tulla- NA is strong- after the dust settles, it may be that PCC was the "third best" team in 6A. Harrisburg will be tough, but if NA beats them decisively, they may give SJP a decent game
I’m
Next year, don’t expect a wpial 6A team to challenge SJP, or even make it to Cumberland Valley. NA and PCC lose a ton, and are bound to regress. Mt. Lebanon, Senceca Valley, and canon Mac may improve, but won’t go far. I’d expect a district 3team to Make it next year
If NA beats Harrisburg by more than 3 tds, I’ll give them a shot at challenging SJP
Next year, don’t expect a wpial 6A team to challenge SJP, or even make it to Cumberland Valley. NA and PCC lose a ton, and are bound to regress. Mt. Lebanon, Senceca Valley, and canon Mac may improve, but won’t go far. I’d expect a district 3team to Make it next year
NA has a very good team this year but they will get mercy ruled before half by prep. The amount of talent on that team is unreal. They have a whole team of 3 and 4 star recruits. Prep has 85 kids on their team and if a kid goes out he's replaced by a kid just as good. The depth on that team is insane. NA has zero chance. Their best player is a Marshal commit.
The reaction was as predictable as the result.
As St. Joe’s Prep kept piling on the points Saturday afternoon against Nazareth in the PIAA Class 6A quarterfinal in what turned into a 59-21 blowout, the frustration mounted on the Nazareth side of the stands at Northeast High School in Philadelphia.
The Blue Eagles fans yelled about recruiting and the fact that several of the St. Joe’s Prep players don’t live in Pennsylvania. Some even chanted “IMG!” a reference to nationally ranked IMG Academy, the only team to beat St. Joe’s Prep this season.
The frustration was understandable, but nothing new for fans of Lehigh Valley teams in the state tournament.
St. Joe’s Prep is now 9-0 against District 11 champs in the highest classification, but the Hawks are not the only ones to cause misery in the PIAA postseason.
Imhotep Charter pounded Pen Argyl 54-7 in 2012, routed Catasauqua (then coached by Nazareth coach Tom Falzone) 49-0 in 2013, and ripped Saucon Valley 72-27 in 2015. Imhotep also beat Bethlehem Catholic three straight years from 2016-18, with each game more lopsided then the last.
La Salle College High School went 4-1 against District 11 teams between 2009-15 with only an overtime win by Parkland breaking that skid. Conwell-Egan doubled up Palisades 34-17 in 2017. Archbishop Wood blitzed Southern Lehigh 41-7 in 2019 and had a 56-13 win over Whitehall in 2013 and a 70-14 rout of Allentown Central Catholic in 2011, one year after Central Catholic beat Wood 49-27 en route to the last state title won by a Lehigh Valley team.
The point is that what happened Saturday to Nazareth has happened before, and the common denominator in all of those games is that the team getting the wins were from “non-boundary” private, charter and parochial schools.
Since the Philadelphia Catholic League became PIAA members in the 2008-09 school year, six years after the Philadelphia Public League came aboard, it has been difficult for District 11 teams to get by them in the state tournament.
What is particularly deflating is the fact that in 6A, the District 11 champ gets matched with the District 12 (Philadelphia) winner immediately when the state tournament begins. There are no options, however, because the District 1 and 3 tournaments are so large that their championships are being decided on the same weekend that states begin.
Coaches and players join the fans in feeling Lehigh Valley public schools deal with an unlevel playing field and an unfair situation when they go against the Preps, Imhoteps and other schools that don’t have defined geographical boundaries.
They want the PIAA to do something so that great football seasons don’t come to crashing conclusions like the one Nazareth experienced Saturday.
“Last year you’re feeling bad for Parkland for going through this thing [a 52-21 loss to St. Joe’s Prep] and now this year it’s us and our fans who will be the ones complaining,” Falzone said before leaving the field Saturday. “I spoke earlier in the week about this and probably said more than I should. But it’s hard when you’re not on the same playing field. It’s not the same at all. I would love to be able to recruit this offseason and bring people in and maybe reach across the border a little bit and find some people in other places. But I don’t get that luxury. I coach the kids that live in Nazareth and you have to live here to go to school here. That’s the reality of it all.”
Falzone, and most other public school coaches, would love to see some kind of classification for teams without boundaries.
But he doesn’t necessarily want to see a seventh class added.
“We jumped to six classifications and I thought that was too much,” he said. “You had teams making the playoffs with losing records and that didn’t seem right. And then you have kids become all-state when they’re not even all-league. I think you’ve watered everything down a little bit by doing that. But if you have six classifications, use them. Go with a big non-boundary and a small non-boundary and let them play it out. You’re not taking away their chance to compete. You just have people competing in the same way and you can go to the public schools and still have four classifications there.”
Falzone understands his suggestion will likely not go anywhere.
“I don’t think anybody cares what Falzone says in little ol’ Nazareth,” he said. “But at some point, they should look at it.”
Based on the comments from players and coaches from other teams on social media, Nazareth is not alone in its frustration.
“This was the best public school football team I’ve seen since ‘15 Parkland. … at what point do we finally start the conversation PIAA?” East Stroudsburg South coach Matt Walters asked on X, the social media platform formerly known as Twitter.
“Looks like it’s going to be another fun-filled and competitive PIAA state tournament! Thank you PIAA for yet again screwing over boundary Pennsylvania kids at the expense of out-of-state players and recruiters,” said Zack Bradley, the Parkland quarterbacks coach who played for Falzone at Catasauqua.
The PIAA is aware of the disenchantment. They hear it every year in late November and early December during the state football tournament and again in March during the PIAA basketball playoffs.
They have tried to address some of the inequities by instituting the transfer postseason ineligibility rule, which did make ineligible St. Joe’s Prep junior left guard Kahul Stewart, but also sidelined Nazareth wide receiver Caleb Newsome.
They have also used a success formula to force teams up in classification. Under the formula, teams that reach the state finals earn four points, state semifinalists earn three, state quarterfinalists two and all teams that make the state tournament get one point. If a team accumulates six or more points in a two-year cycle that program has to move up in class.
However, St. Joe’s Prep is already at the highest classification level.
Tim Roken said after Saturday’s game that he has great respect for the teams in District 11. He became familiar with this area’s high school programs when he played at East Stroudsburg University and had many teammates from the Lehigh Valley.
Roken, who played high school football at Archbishop Ryan, said he has his largest roster ever with 100 kids.
And the program recruits itself by the success of players beyond the high school level. Three NFL players came from Prep, most notably Eagles running back D’Andre Swift. In the 2020 NFL draft, Prep had three alumni taken, the second-most in the country behind only IMG Academy.
Ohio State wide receiver Marvin Harrison Jr. will likely join Swift and other former Hawks in the NFL next year.
Roken understands the frustration of those trying to knock off his team, but said not enough people respect how hard his team works.
“Our kids show up every day to work and compete and they hold themselves to a high standard on the field and in the classroom as well,” Roken said. “Discipline is the biggest piece. I learned a lot of things from Coach [Denny] Douds at ESU, and offensive coordinator Tom Sugden also played at ESU. We try to instill a lot of things we learned there. We want to make sure we develop a player-led team. A lot of people on the outside if they haven’t been around it and they just look, they think we just walk into the state finals every year. But we’ve had some great battles every year, including some great games with Parkland and Freedom.”
But Saturday never became a battle. In essence, the game was over by halftime, if not the end of the first quarter.
Before the game, Falzone said Roken was fortunate to coach such a talented team.
At day’s end, however, he felt lucky as well.
“I’m proud of all of these kids and coaches and I celebrate our seniors,” Falzone said. “We have a great community. We traveled really well here to Philly even though we’re going against these beasts. Our band came. I’m proud of them, too, because they’re on Thanksgiving break and it was optional for them to come and many of them were here. Nazareth is a special place and I am blessed to be here.”
You can't blame Nazareth or any public school for stating what is true. The Prep is a national power, and they shouldn't be playing neighborhood high schools. I can tell you this from first hand knowledge, those public school kids work just as hard as the Prep kids do.
I'm not challenging your "first hand knowledge" of how hard players at schools like Nazareth work but what is your "first hand knowledge" of SJP? Nobody is denying that not having boundaries is an advantage.
I grew up in the Philly Archdiocese, so I know of St Joes. My response was to the Mcall article where Roken states "no one knows how hard Prep kids work". I admire St Joes commitment to winning, but again, they shouldn't be playing neighborhood schools.
So I went back and watched an old interview that I'm going to transcribe here. The subject is Scott Green, the former wrestling coach at Wyoming Seminary, now the top assistant at West Point. Scott took Wyoming Seminary from a novice program where kids would join the team to earn a varsity letter for college transcripts to the #1 team in America that ended Blair Academy's stranglehold on the National Prep title - they also finished as national #1 three times under Green. At Wyoming Sem, he coached a number of NCAA All Americans, USA Wrestling cadet and junior world team members, and had a lineup of Division I kids every year after he built the program. I greatly respect Scott's work as a coach, educator, and advocate for the health of the sport. One of the really good guys.
Anyway, here are his thoughts on the topic, from the perspective of an open borders school that fielded one of the best teams in America - I'm transcribing it from a video, so I've tried to clean it up so it's more readable:
"Just a little opinion on private school public school debate, having been there, done that for quite some time. There's just an easy solution out there. And it was tough when i was at Sem balancing out that stuff of public vs. private and recruiting and all of that. I'm going to leave the word recruiting out, or assembling an all star team, or whatever. The point is, it's the simplest solution in the world, and shame on people for not doing it. The simple solution is this: boundary schools in one division for team championships, nonboundary schools in another. That's it. That's all you need to do, and a majority of the sane people in the world would be satisfied. You'll still get the whackjob moms and crazy dads chanting "homegrown" at individual tournaments and be mad. But for the sane people in the world, that's the solution.
This is just the honest truth too. When i was at Wyoming Seminary, kids did not go there to win a PIAA championship in wrestling. They were going there to get better at wrestling and have opportunities in wrestling beyond Wyoming Seminary. If you take winning a PIAA title or National Preps title out of it, would kids still go there, I think they would.
I would have been absolutely embarrassed, it would have been terrible, for me to show up at the PIAA district duals with a team assembled from all over - different schools, area, and parts of the state - to beat up on the Lake Lehmans, Wyoming Valley Wests of the world. That's just not remotely fair to those schools for us to be doing that. Those are kids that have been wrestling together since they were little kids, they all live in the same town. They deserve a championship experience. They deserve to advance in a championship experience without playing an all star team. Without playing an assembled team of people who are all attracted to the same school to wrestle, and schools that have the opportunity to pull in kids from all over. We're not doing the same thing. And for those schools, it's against their values. It's on every single one of their web pages, Wyoming Seminary included, they espouse certain values and playing athletics in a totally unlevel playing field is against the things that they stand for, or say they stand for.
Find a way, if its PAISA, if its the Jersey model, however you do it. And you know what, in the regular season, everyone plays everyone, who cares, right. Compete against the best, measure yourself against everybody. But I'm talking about a championship experience. There has to be a way for a team of kids from the same high school who have grown up together, built a program together, to have a championship experience against other like teams. And yes, I know there are other public schools that recruit, and that's embarrassing too, and their coaches should be embarrassed for doing it.
There's a solution here, and its simple. And once you take a couple steps back and take ego out of it, and you take all the different things that are fueling the fire out of it, do the simplest thing in the world. Not everybody would be happy, but all the non-crazy people in the world would be happy. Those are my thoughts. Boundary schools deserve a championship experience against other boundary schools. Nonboudnary schools can find a way to bring kids together on the same team and compete. And if it's not happening its because state associations and governing bodies are not doing their jobs."
Anyway, here are his thoughts on the topic, from the perspective of an open borders school that fielded one of the best teams in America - I'm transcribing it from a video, so I've tried to clean it up so it's more readable:
"Just a little opinion on private school public school debate, having been there, done that for quite some time. There's just an easy solution out there. And it was tough when i was at Sem balancing out that stuff of public vs. private and recruiting and all of that. I'm going to leave the word recruiting out, or assembling an all star team, or whatever. The point is, it's the simplest solution in the world, and shame on people for not doing it. The simple solution is this: boundary schools in one division for team championships, nonboundary schools in another. That's it. That's all you need to do, and a majority of the sane people in the world would be satisfied. You'll still get the whackjob moms and crazy dads chanting "homegrown" at individual tournaments and be mad. But for the sane people in the world, that's the solution.
This is just the honest truth too. When i was at Wyoming Seminary, kids did not go there to win a PIAA championship in wrestling. They were going there to get better at wrestling and have opportunities in wrestling beyond Wyoming Seminary. If you take winning a PIAA title or National Preps title out of it, would kids still go there, I think they would.
I would have been absolutely embarrassed, it would have been terrible, for me to show up at the PIAA district duals with a team assembled from all over - different schools, area, and parts of the state - to beat up on the Lake Lehmans, Wyoming Valley Wests of the world. That's just not remotely fair to those schools for us to be doing that. Those are kids that have been wrestling together since they were little kids, they all live in the same town. They deserve a championship experience. They deserve to advance in a championship experience without playing an all star team. Without playing an assembled team of people who are all attracted to the same school to wrestle, and schools that have the opportunity to pull in kids from all over. We're not doing the same thing. And for those schools, it's against their values. It's on every single one of their web pages, Wyoming Seminary included, they espouse certain values and playing athletics in a totally unlevel playing field is against the things that they stand for, or say they stand for.
Find a way, if its PAISA, if its the Jersey model, however you do it. And you know what, in the regular season, everyone plays everyone, who cares, right. Compete against the best, measure yourself against everybody. But I'm talking about a championship experience. There has to be a way for a team of kids from the same high school who have grown up together, built a program together, to have a championship experience against other like teams. And yes, I know there are other public schools that recruit, and that's embarrassing too, and their coaches should be embarrassed for doing it.
There's a solution here, and its simple. And once you take a couple steps back and take ego out of it, and you take all the different things that are fueling the fire out of it, do the simplest thing in the world. Not everybody would be happy, but all the non-crazy people in the world would be happy. Those are my thoughts. Boundary schools deserve a championship experience against other boundary schools. Nonboudnary schools can find a way to bring kids together on the same team and compete. And if it's not happening its because state associations and governing bodies are not doing their jobs."
That's an interesting perspective. Thanks for posting it.
I think Roken's point was not that SJP players necessarily work harder than players at other schools but that it isn't the case that already very talented players come to SJP and win almost by just walking onto the field. And there is something to the fact that SJP players, partly because almost all of them have substantial commutes each day, do have to make some sacrifices that kids who go to neighborhood schools don't have to make. That doesn't make them better people but it does mean they and their families have invested more--and I'm not talking mainly money here--than players and families have at, say, North Penn.
Two other things. I think most coaches at very dedicated and some (e.g., most of the ones in the Philly Public League) have huge barriers/problems to contend with that coaches at many schools don't have to face, at least to the same degree. BUT the evidence is all around us that really good coaches make a huge difference. Think Southern Columbia, CBW in the 90s, Blakely in the 60s, Egan in the 60s, etc. All of these, including Egan, were boundary schools. In these cases and many more, a school was dominant for longer than the time any single group of players was on the team.
And excellent coaching brings with it a certain tradition that from the moment a kid joins a team creates certain expectations. My son was a long-distance runner in high school. His school's team won the regional cross-country championship for about 25 years--and it wasn't because kids who had an aptitude for long-distance running, i.e. certain kinds of body shapes and low heart rates, gravitated to that school. Older students and even "graduates" helped the young students learn the ropes and acted as role models. I can't say my son and his teammates trained harder all-year round than students at other schools, but the results suggested there was some difference.
There's some analogy here between the situation I've just described and the football program at SJP, but there are obviously some important differences. I can see why some think it would be better for all for SJP not to compete in the PIAA football playoffs, but for lots of reasons I don't think it would be the panacea they think it would be.
Football Semi final weekend upcoming-21 of 24 of the teams left, are Public/boundary- now- 12% of the remaining teams are non-boundary. Is that a tragedy?
I don’t think there should be a question of who works harder. They’re coaching highly ranked kids. You think they all got that way of talent? Granted some may be naturally talented but you have fillers who go on to play at Ivy League & d3 schools who make all state. Go to every college camp on this coast, training, or workout it’s dominated by their numbers. Prior to my last son attending Roman my ask from the coach was “ why do I see Prep coaches out every wknd and not ours ?” We can put as much emphasis as we want on boundaries and maybe I don’t bc we’re similar at what we can do, but I think it’s comes down to coaching and work ethic. Before our first scrimmage this yr I said jokingly to the OC “you’re a jersey guy why can’t we win (recruiting ) jersey?”
It’s only an issue if they win. You would think there’s only 1 non boundary school in pa far as football.
Even if you separate private schools from public you will still have the same issue with the private schools. Other then prep and Imhotep what private schools are dominating or getting the talent they are. Look at the wpial this year or on the western part of the state. We have no private schools in the semi finals. I think even if you separate them prep and Imhotep will still dominate. I think the reason is the location, coaching and mostly scheduling. Preps willing to travel and fund that. Prep plays and national schedule on ESPN. That alone will draw in the talent. Think about the number of D1 coaches at the prep IMG game alone. A kid has a big game in that game alone will get him a scholarship. You are way more likely to get recognized or a major scholarship there. They are drawing the best talent not only from Philly but NJ as well both heavily populated areas. We don't have this issue on the western part of the state.
in the west, we also do not have the same "issues" because we have stricter and more consistent rules, and "rule-following" related to transfers, game scheduling and recruiting
You're right that the situations in various parts of the state are different. But note that in the Philly area there are many non-boundary schools that compete for students/players. You've got not only all the PCL schools--there's no league of Catholic schools elsewhere in PA--but six Interac Schools (most of which have ambitious football programs), some non-PCL Catholic schools (PJP and Shanahan), and you've got several Jersey non-boundary schools. Then there's IMHOTEP.
Of course it's a big advantage to be able to attract students/players from Coatesville to Vineland NJ, but it takes a huge effort to make it all work. I suspect what it looks like on the ground is not what most of those commenting in other parts of the state think it looks like.
About playing on ESPN: it's not as if SJP made a deal with ESPN to cover one of their games each year and that used that coverage to recruit players. SJP built a program that was good enough for ESPN to take an interest. That took years under Brooks and and then for several years after 2006 SJP wasn't on ESPN at all. You also run a risk when you're on ESPN: if you play poorly and/or get beaten badly you take a real reputational hit.
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After watching Prep/Nazareth the differential in size on the line was ridiculous. CB South will match up size wise much better. In my opinion the game will be much closer.
Of course it’s values, on multiple levels. The denial of this is the sign of our times.
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We have just as many Catholic schools out west and prep has to fund those trips and national schedule. You have to be willing to dump money into the coaching staff, traveling, and putting your players in hotels. I think thier schedule as a lot to do with getting the talent in and their success. Preps played as far as California. Didn't they play in Florida this season. Name me another football team in Pa that's funding their football team to do that. I know the wpial has one week 0 game and can only play wpial schools. To even get that ball rolling you do have to have a success program to begin with but the talent they are getting and the amount of it is so uneven. I worry about kids safety too. Prep has an 85 man roster and D1 kids on both sides of the ball. Subbing in kids with just as much talent. They are going to play cb south who I'm willing to bet most thier kids are just normal high school athletes playing both ways all season. I'm not a prep hater and I'm a product of Catholic schools myself but they are a traveling all star team. There is a reason they never have to rebuild or have a down year.
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On which side of the ball? CBS have great size for their offense but so did CBW and Garnet. On offense they’ll shield instead of move guys similar to zone blocking. Also consider the number of guys that go both ways. Nazareth couldn’t keep up. I thought they had quite of few offensive weapons to exploit sjp a little but it’s different when you got to stay on the field most of the game against guys fresh off the bench.
I think Kyle Craig’s article is better and less hysterical than Keith Groller’s (though I’ve long had quibbles with Keith).
Anyway, the New Jersey 70% rule is not something I’d given any thought to until Craig brings it up in this piece (it’s what made Phillipsburg leave the old East Penn Conference when it was passed in the 90s, a decision P’Burg folks still lament because of how far the other similarly sized schools are in New Jersey).
www.lehighvalleylive.com
Anyway, the New Jersey 70% rule is not something I’d given any thought to until Craig brings it up in this piece (it’s what made Phillipsburg leave the old East Penn Conference when it was passed in the 90s, a decision P’Burg folks still lament because of how far the other similarly sized schools are in New Jersey).
Unequal footing: Prep’s unique dominance festers dissent about PIAA football format | Commentary
Does the PIAA have the desire (or ability) to separate public schools from national powerhouses?
Great take by the Wyoming Seminary wrestling coach. He shows emotional maturity and a lot of common sense in discussing this issue. If you chose to be a national power all star team than you should show the same common sense.
I said a while back that the Archbishop Wood's and St Joes Prep (obviously not as much Wood anymore) of the world will end then PIAA. I can see District 11 opting out of having to play teams like the Prep next year, and then being joined by District 1. They'll both go back to the old Eastern Conference playoff's.
I said a while back that the Archbishop Wood's and St Joes Prep (obviously not as much Wood anymore) of the world will end then PIAA. I can see District 11 opting out of having to play teams like the Prep next year, and then being joined by District 1. They'll both go back to the old Eastern Conference playoff's.
Scott is one of the best. He's one of those coaches that was probably the best teacher at the school (he taught English there) and just sees the big picture. He’s also an incredible coach, both with what he did in the New York club scene and then at Binghamtom before he was at Sem, his success there, and what he adds at Army now.
Now, Sem also had an option available to them. Wrestling has had National Preps, which is older than most state tournaments, which is where boarding schools like Sem and Blair Academy have competed for generations with a lot of the private schools in Virginia, the InterAc schools (formerly the PCL schools pre-2008) plus pop up private school programs like Lake Highland Prep in Florida, Bishop Lynch in Texas, the weird new online school in Arizona where Eric Larkin’s kid wrestled, etc. Totally outside the state system, all private/prep schools that at least have the same options available to them around the make-up of their teams.
I don’t think leaving the PIAA is going to happen for the D11 schools. I think leaving just for football is not an option, and exiting in all sports isn’t something anybody wants.
Stated this in another thread, but it's relevant here:
It’s two fold: (1) 6A administrations need to stand up for their kids and their football programs. Force PIAA to make a change. (2) SJP administration should pull their football program out of the PIAA playoffs. Go play some all star team from some other state and avoid O’Doyle Rules-type games against PA boundary schools.
It’s two fold: (1) 6A administrations need to stand up for their kids and their football programs. Force PIAA to make a change. (2) SJP administration should pull their football program out of the PIAA playoffs. Go play some all star team from some other state and avoid O’Doyle Rules-type games against PA boundary schools.
In response to the suggestion that SJP should play "a national schedule" and play similarly high-powered programs: Yes, SJP generally travels out of the region but only once a year and always in the very early part of the season. Believe me when I say they don't have the money to take more than one such trip. The only team that really does travel nationally is IMG and we know they are, literally, a business. All those other top programs in CA, FL, etc. play all or nearly all their games against teams from their part of the state. I think Bishop Gorman goes out of state once a year. St. John's (DC) has played a semi-national schedule but they have a billionaire who bankrolls the program . Also all their games in the second half of the season are against schools in their league in the DC area (DeMatha, Gonzaga, Good Counsel, etc.).
And leagues are the other issue. In California, Florida, DC, North Jersey, etc. the top schools are all in leagues, usually with a lot of other strong programs. That means they're not almost never available to play SJP after September because they have their own league games to play and their own league playoffs or, in some cases, state playoffs. Of course SJP is also part of a league, the PCL, and that locks them into playing at least four regular season games between late September and late October and a league playoff game or two in November. If SJP were to leave the PCL now it would be very bad for the league. Plus at least LaSalle and Roman will likely continue to improve; they both are keen to knock off SJP. Now if Malvern were to decide it wanted to join the PCL, we could think about the Phila area equivalent of the leagues in North Jersey and around DC, but I haven't seen any signs Malvern is interested.
In response to he Nazareth fans upset that SJP has 18 players from Jersey, out of about 60 on the varsity roster. They may not know that SJP has always had a fair number of students and players from Jersey. When I started at the Prep 56 years ago our best player was Dan Magee from Cinnaminson NJ. Thirty years later Victor Hobson (later at Michigan and in the NFL) came to SJP from Jersey--as did Coach Brooks himself when a student and coach. All this was known to the PIAA when the PCL joined. Are there more Jersey players now? It looks like there is a modest increase, but there's also been an increase in the number of Jersey students overall at SJP.
Some bigger context might help. We all know the national rankings of HS football teams don't mean a lot, especially when it comes to where individual schools should be ranked. But they do generally reflect some realities. In the MaxPreps rankings, 6 of the top 10 teams were Catholic schools, three were public, and one was IMG. In the NHSF rankings it was 7-2-1. The latter rankings listed 300 teams. Interestingly there were 5 Catholic schools in Jersey listed among the 300 and not one public school. For PA the only 4 teams listed are SJP, IMHOTEP, McDevitt, and Malvern Prep. For Ohio, on the other hand, there are 8 public schools and 6 Catholic schools listed. I won't go on about what all of this suggests, but I think it's pretty clear.
SJP isn't doing anything different from what it was doing when the PCL joined the PIAA in 2008, but they have gotten better at what they're doing. For the first five years LaSalle was the rep of the larger PCL schools in the PIAA playoffs. Then SJP won two state championships after winning some very close playoff games (Frankford, Neshaminy and PCC--which was leading at halftime--in 2013 and Parkland and P-R in 2014). In 2015 LaSalle beat SJP. In 2016 there was again a very close Eastern Final against NP and a pretty close state championship game, despite the final score, against PCC--the Prep was up 7-0 just before the half. In 2017 SJP beat Coatesville in a squeaker and lost to P-R. Since then there has been a mix of blowouts and close games--including the loss to ML--in the state playoffs. What's changed is the context. More promising players--and their families--are approaching SJP because of changes in college recruiting and probably for other reasons too. This year with all the attention to Swift and Zacchaeus on the Eagles and Harrison and McCord at OSU has seen a real rise in the profile of the program.
My overall point is that the current situation in one of six classifications in PA hs football is the result of several factors (including some within the PCL) that have developed over the years. It's not a story of one vainglorious team or school abandoning its values.
And leagues are the other issue. In California, Florida, DC, North Jersey, etc. the top schools are all in leagues, usually with a lot of other strong programs. That means they're not almost never available to play SJP after September because they have their own league games to play and their own league playoffs or, in some cases, state playoffs. Of course SJP is also part of a league, the PCL, and that locks them into playing at least four regular season games between late September and late October and a league playoff game or two in November. If SJP were to leave the PCL now it would be very bad for the league. Plus at least LaSalle and Roman will likely continue to improve; they both are keen to knock off SJP. Now if Malvern were to decide it wanted to join the PCL, we could think about the Phila area equivalent of the leagues in North Jersey and around DC, but I haven't seen any signs Malvern is interested.
In response to he Nazareth fans upset that SJP has 18 players from Jersey, out of about 60 on the varsity roster. They may not know that SJP has always had a fair number of students and players from Jersey. When I started at the Prep 56 years ago our best player was Dan Magee from Cinnaminson NJ. Thirty years later Victor Hobson (later at Michigan and in the NFL) came to SJP from Jersey--as did Coach Brooks himself when a student and coach. All this was known to the PIAA when the PCL joined. Are there more Jersey players now? It looks like there is a modest increase, but there's also been an increase in the number of Jersey students overall at SJP.
Some bigger context might help. We all know the national rankings of HS football teams don't mean a lot, especially when it comes to where individual schools should be ranked. But they do generally reflect some realities. In the MaxPreps rankings, 6 of the top 10 teams were Catholic schools, three were public, and one was IMG. In the NHSF rankings it was 7-2-1. The latter rankings listed 300 teams. Interestingly there were 5 Catholic schools in Jersey listed among the 300 and not one public school. For PA the only 4 teams listed are SJP, IMHOTEP, McDevitt, and Malvern Prep. For Ohio, on the other hand, there are 8 public schools and 6 Catholic schools listed. I won't go on about what all of this suggests, but I think it's pretty clear.
SJP isn't doing anything different from what it was doing when the PCL joined the PIAA in 2008, but they have gotten better at what they're doing. For the first five years LaSalle was the rep of the larger PCL schools in the PIAA playoffs. Then SJP won two state championships after winning some very close playoff games (Frankford, Neshaminy and PCC--which was leading at halftime--in 2013 and Parkland and P-R in 2014). In 2015 LaSalle beat SJP. In 2016 there was again a very close Eastern Final against NP and a pretty close state championship game, despite the final score, against PCC--the Prep was up 7-0 just before the half. In 2017 SJP beat Coatesville in a squeaker and lost to P-R. Since then there has been a mix of blowouts and close games--including the loss to ML--in the state playoffs. What's changed is the context. More promising players--and their families--are approaching SJP because of changes in college recruiting and probably for other reasons too. This year with all the attention to Swift and Zacchaeus on the Eagles and Harrison and McCord at OSU has seen a real rise in the profile of the program.
My overall point is that the current situation in one of six classifications in PA hs football is the result of several factors (including some within the PCL) that have developed over the years. It's not a story of one vainglorious team or school abandoning its values.
These facts you stated have been outlined dozens of times ,and still people dont get the fact that the Prep isnt doing anything different than they have done in the past. The coaching has improved and they are attracting solid athletes and therefore attracting more attention.As Tulla pointed out the Prep has played very competitive games against boundary schools within Pa. losing a couple championships along the way. The last few years they are fielding very good squads that have outpaced the competition in Pa. This may or may not continue
It is beating the same ole horse for sure. But I think some of these guys are new to the board and haven't considered the issue or had it explained with the clarity tulla did above.
You don't have to like it. But at least understand why it's so. I didn't like a friend's boy getting it handed to him when the Hawks destroyed Central Dauphin anymore than when they did the same to Harrisburg.
Knowing it's all within the rules however painful makes it at least understandable.
Most programs , not all come to an end of dominating as we have all seen due to one reason or another. Think CB West and their 2- 50 plus game winning streaks North Penn and Archbishop Wood and their dominance in their classification. The Prep may go through the same ,who knows? Perhaps other programs improve like Pine Richland and others . My point being with all this complaining about the Prep and the get them out shouting what happens if that occurs and then their program begins to falter. They will be left with nowhere to go. Yes ,for now they have a great program and coaching and may continue winning for awhile so be it .