Realignment and success formula

[Hausmann1978]

I'm a supporter of the success formula. I think that's the reason we saw such competitive games last weekend. It'll be interesting next season with teams moving. I heard central valley is going up to 4A and woodland hills is dropping down to 3A. Wood could be dropping back down to 5A and Erie prep moving to 6A. Aliquippa is a single A team that could be forced up to 5A which is crazy. There's definitely some kinks that need to be worked out. Aliquippa has 200 some students that could be playing 5A yet southern Columbia has 400+ and plays 2A. I heard they are working out a loop hole which southern Columbia takes advantage of by not counting votech students. It'll be interesting with the realignment to see where some of these schools fall next season.

 

[Stalker]

I'm a supporter of the success formula. I think that's the reason we saw such competitive games last weekend. It'll be interesting next season with teams moving. I heard central valley is going up to 4A and woodland hills is dropping down to 3A. Wood could be dropping back down to 5A and Erie prep moving to 6A. Aliquippa is a single A team that could be forced up to 5A which is crazy. There's definitely some kinks that need to be worked out. Aliquippa has 200 some students that could be playing 5A yet southern Columbia has 400+ and plays 2A. I heard they are working out a loop hole which southern Columbia takes advantage of by not counting votech students. It'll be interesting with the realignment to see where some of these schools fall next season.

** Correct. Columbia-Montour Vo-Tech.
** And about Aliquippa being forced up, sometimes 2 slots or more, the bright boys at the PIAA need to balance that out by making each of their opponents suit up the same number of players the Quips suit up. Otherwise, you're penalizing success; a trend becoming more prevalent nowadays.

 

[Hausmann1978]

** Correct. Columbia-Montour Vo-Tech.
** And about Aliquippa being forced up, sometimes 2 slots or more, the bright boys at the PIAA need to balance that out by making each of their opponents suit up the same number of players the Quips suit up. Otherwise, you're penalizing success; a trend becoming more prevalent nowadays.

Stalker couldn't agree more. I think the quips have the talent to play with the 5A schools but all their kids play both ways because of numbers. That's a long season for a single A school to play a whole season at the 5A level. You are punishing them for choosing to play up in the first place. I guess that's why they have an appeal process and hopefully it works.

 

[shfoot]

Strath Haven played Wyoming Area in 2003 at Coatesville in the state Qtrs. WA only had 23 players only playing one side with one sub. Impressive to make it that far on so few.

 

[Hausmann1978]

Strath Haven played Wyoming Area in 2003 at Coatesville in the state Qtrs. WA only had 23 players only playing one side with one sub. Impressive to make it that far on so few.

That is impressive. I think the quips starters can complete at 5A but they don't have the numbers for a whole season. They are getting punished for choosing to play up in the first place. I love the success formula but there are a lot of kinks that need to be worked out.

 

[new2pa]

This Aliquippa thing could absolutely blow up. Their are arguments on both sides. And the arguements are extremely complicated…

 

[Hausmann1978]

This Aliquippa thing could absolutely blow up. Their are arguments on both sides. And the arguements are extremely complicated…

Its already blown up. Aliquippa has threatened to leave the piaa and play an independent schedule except I don't think they have the funding for it. I don't see the agreement for the piaa. There is no reason a single A school should play 4 classifications above thier enrollment.

 

[Stalker]

This Aliquippa thing could absolutely blow up. Their are arguments on both sides. And the arguements are extremely complicated…

Arguments on both sides? What is the argument to support punishing a team for success? Playing up is one thing and a punishment in itself.
Now, level THAT playing field by making the other team suit the same number of players. And if they don't volunteer to do that, they lack the integrity and class to play a team the caliber of Aliquippa.

 

[new2pa]

Stalk - IMO opinion, the argument is unfortunately gonna come down to this:

Rules vs Race

Thats why I say it could blow up.

in the WPIAL message boards on FB out here it’s already that.

IMO, the simple solution to this is to go back to your base classification and move up from there, regardless of transfers. Lots of people who have to play sub-6A private schools won’t like that, but it works.

 

[aerogenes]

If you don't have too many transfer athletes the success points don't kick in and you don't move up no matter how well you do.

 

[new2pa]

My take and my take only on Aliquippa…


The reason they have transfers is because of socio-economic reasons, not for “great athletes” transferring.

That may happen, but not the crux of the reason.

 

[Hausmann1978]

My take and my take only on Aliquippa…


The reason they have transfers is because of socio-economic reasons, not for “great athletes” transferring.

That may happen, but not the crux of the reason.

I agree, but regardless of the transfers you should move them up from where they are classified at. Not from where they chose to play up at.

 

[SPEED&JUMP DR.]

They are not being penalized for kids transferring out , but for kids transferring in to the district. If you have a successful program, kids kind of “ find” your team . It happens at many schools. But it must be happening at a rate over and above what’s considered normal if they keep getting bumped up in class. The simple solution is to stop accepting transfers , then you won’t get bumped up regardless of how good you are. Or you take your lumps at a higher class , a la Wood, before you settle back down to your regular class.

 

[Hausmann1978]

They are not being penalized for kids transferring out , but for kids transferring in to the district. If you have a successful program, kids kind of “ find” your team . It happens at many schools. But it must be happening at a rate over and above what’s considered normal if they keep getting bumped up in class. The simple solution is to stop accepting transfers , then you won’t get bumped up regardless of how good you are. Or you take your lumps at a higher class , a la Wood, before you settle back down to your regular class.

I'm hearing a lot of the kids transfer have ties and grew up in Aliquippa. It's a poor area and because of economic reasons are moving in with grandparents and ect... Even if you want to penalize them for that move them up from the class they were supposed to be in not from what they chose to play up in. It's complete BS.

 

[sammyk]

Then If I am Aliquippa I start recruiting right now . If they are going to move my single A school to 5A because of a few transfers coming in then I am loading up on all the talent in Beaver county and wreck the PIAA. They are being penalized for being "too good". Are you kidding me?

 

[Hausmann1978]

Then If I am Aliquippa I start recruiting right now . If they are going to move my single A school to 5A because of a few transfers coming in then I am loading up on all the talent in Beaver county and wreck the PIAA. They are being penalized for being "too good". Are you kidding me?

In my opinion the piaa is biased against the west. They are tired of the wpial winning titles. They realigned the playoffs a few years back to have district 12 play district 7 in the western finals. What ever happened to east vs west? Plus you have southern Columbia who has 400+ students playing 2A and Aliquippa with 200 some students playing 5A.

 

[sammyk]

Not too long ago the SOL was the standard, you had great teams coaches and players. I know I have been coaching here in NC for a long time but What has happened to the great teams out there Where is CB West , North Penn, Neshaminy, D-Town, Pennridge, Pennsbury Council Rock North or South? Or the great teams of Ridley, Strath Haven. Where is SEPA?????? Where are you at???? I am calling you out. I have been on here since 2001 and what is going on is sickening up there. Either the admins there dont care or it's something else. I would have given my eye teeth to have coached at anyone of those places what has happened to SEPA football???? And being a WPIAL product the west is shrinking it should not be hard to beat a shrinking area in regards to population

 

[TribSportsGuy]

My take and my take only on Aliquippa…


The reason they have transfers is because of socio-economic reasons, not for “great athletes” transferring.

That may happen, but not the crux of the reason.

Mark Warfield said as much stating his kids are sometimes “transient” meaning a home in Aliquppa is the only place to lay their head. I hate seeing kids punished because of the actions of their parents/guardians. The highest level they should be playing is 3A. If a 3A school does not have enough depth to outplay kids that are playing on both sides of the ball, sometimes including special teams, that team got to play better.

 

[RCH13co18]

Anyone know how many classes up Imhotep is playing ? I know the size of the school is pretty small.

 

[SPEED&JUMP DR.]

According to the last enrollment period , they have 246 boys ,which would put them just over the 238 number for 4A. Curiously, the PIAA website has them voluntarily playing in 5 A, not that they were forced to play there .

 

[new2pa]

I think he’s talking about Imhotep, not Quip.

 

[Hausmann1978]

I think he’s talking about Imhotep, not Quip.

Nevermind, Then he would be correct.

 

[Hausmann1978]

According to the last enrollment period , they have 246 boys ,which would put them just over the 238 number for 4A. Curiously, the PIAA website has them voluntarily playing in 5 A, not that they were forced to play there .

With the success formula will they be forced up to 6A?

 

[Stalker]

Here's PIAA's page on Dist-12​

​

SCHOOL CLASSIFICATIONS FOR FOOTBALL​

District 12 Football Class AAAAA (Classification Season: 20/21)

School ​	Male Enrollment
FATHER JUDGE HIGH SCHOOL	575
Frankford High School	438
Imhotep Institute Charter High School	246
Jules E. Mastbaum Area Vocational Technical School	300
Martin Luther King High School	241
Roxborough High School	371
Samuel S. Fels High School	424
Shoemaker Mastery Charter School	210
Simon Gratz Mastery Charter School	418
Thomas A. Edison High School	523

 

[new2pa]

With the success formula will they be forced up to 6A?

no. They did not play in 2020

 

[Stalker]

They keep this up the PIAA may advise they go FCS. That'll teach em to be successful!

 

[Hausmann1978]

They keep this up the PIAA may advise they go FCS. That'll teach em to be successful!

I like the success formula and think it works. Look how competitive the games were in Hershey. The fans and kids want to see competitive games but there are some kinks that need to be worked out. You shouldnt be playing more then 2 classes up from where you are classified at and you shouldn't have bigger schools (southern Columbia) who found a loop hole in not counting votech students beating up on small Schools. Big surprise that was the only game not competitive. We will see if the appeal process works and if they work these kinks out.

 

[Stalker]

I like the success formula and think it works. Look how competitive the games were in Hershey. The fans and kids want to see competitive games but there are some kinks that need to be worked out. You shouldnt be playing more then 2 classes up from where you are classified at and you shouldn't have bigger schools (southern Columbia) who found a loop hole in not counting votech students beating up on small Schools. Big surprise that was the only game not competitive. We will see if the appeal process works and if they work these kinks out.

I get fair play and I'm all for it, but you can't tilt the playing field too far the other way in class elevations. The bigger schools already have advantages, (better facilities, off season programs, etc) certainly more advantages than depressed economic areas. These advantages can be pervasive.
There is no way you've evened the playing field (isn't that the point?) allowing the larger school to have 2 platoons....or simple depth advantages....against a 1A team. Those aren't 'kinks to be worked out', they're dangerous physical imbalances that will get someone hurt. That's part of why I said they should be forced to suit up/play the same number Aliquippa suits up/plays.
Not carping at you Hausmann1978, just getting it out there.

 

[Hausmann1978]

I get fair play and I'm all for it, but you can't tilt the playing field too far the other way in class elevations. The bigger schools already have advantages, (better facilities, off season programs, etc) certainly more advantages than depressed economic areas. These advantages can be pervasive.
There is no way you've evened the playing field (isn't that the point?) allowing the larger school to have 2 platoons....or simple depth advantages....against a 1A team. Those aren't 'kinks to be worked out', they're dangerous physical imbalances that will get someone hurt. That's part of why I said they should be forced to suit up/play the same number Aliquippa suits up/plays.
Not carping at you Hausmann1978, just getting it out there.

I agree as far as Aliquippa I said you shouldn't be moved up more then two classes more then you are already classified at let alone 4 classifications. They are being punished also for choosing to play up in the first place. I don't know if you have read my previous posts but you are preaching to the choir. Especially since southern Columbia won their appeal and has over double the students as the quips. We are on the same side here. I think Imhotep and Erie prep are fine with moving to 6A. They can complete at that level and prep was in the biggest classification before and won it all in the biggest classification. Imhotep has one of the best teams in the state no matter the classification every year.

 

[new2pa]

Penn Trafford beat ‘tep. Tep is staying 5A unless they choose to move up.

 

[Hausmann1978]

Penn Trafford beat ‘tep. Tep is staying 5A unless they choose to move up.

Ok, that should create a great rivalry with them and wood. The team thats dropping down that everyone has to look out for is woodland hills. They will be dropping from 5A to 3A and should be a beast in 3A.

 

[d1football1]

My take and my take only on Aliquippa…


The reason they have transfers is because of socio-economic reasons, not for “great athletes” transferring.

That may happen, but not the crux of the reason.

Exactly.
I don't think Aliquippa is a destination for families. While we all understand the goal success formula was designed for non-public schools, poor schools get screwed.

 

[new2pa]

Hearing Woody will stay 5A or at least 4A

 

[Stalker]

Hearing Woody will stay 5A or at least 4A

Makes sense. Who wants to be in Central Valley's, Wyomissing's, etc, neighborhood at 3A?

 

[Hausmann1978]

Makes sense. Who wants to be in Central Valley's, Wyomissing's, etc, neighborhood at 3A?

Central valley is going up to 4A. 4A may be the best classification in the wpial next year. I heard Belle Vernon will be 3A next year. Watch out for them and Quentin Martin.

 

[Stalker]

Central valley is going up to 4A. 4A may be the best classification in the wpial next year. I heard Belle Vernon will be 3A next year. Watch out for them and Quentin Martin.

Wow on CV moving up and BV has always been a stud!

 

[Hausmann1978]

Wow on CV moving up and BV has always been a stud!

Central valley I believe was under the 4A classification last time by 1 student. 4A will be exciting.

 

[new2pa]

Central Valley
TJ
Belle Vernon
South Fayette (moving down )
West A (moving down)
McKeesport (moving up by choice)

could all be in same conference.

 

[Stalker]

I agree as far as Aliquippa I said you shouldn't be moved up more then two classes more then you are already classified at let alone 4 classifications. They are being punished also for choosing to play up in the first place. I don't know if you have read my previous posts but you are preaching to the choir. Especially since southern Columbia won their appeal and has over double the students as the quips. We are on the same side here. I think Imhotep and Erie prep are fine with moving to 6A. They can complete at that level and prep was in the biggest classification before and won it all in the biggest classification. Imhotep has one of the best teams in the state no matter the classification every year.

Like I said above Hausmann1978....."Not carping at you Hausmann1978, just getting it out there." I realize we're singing the same song.
And the SCA business is a strange one not counting guys from the Vo-Tech.
Bottom line on transfers and classifications, the PIAA does a horrible job similar to how the NCAA has mishandled, should say not handled NIL, transfer portal, etc before these issues got to court.
What's new....?....realizing we are poorly led/managed in so many instances, across the board.

 

[Hausmann1978]

Like I said above Hausmann1978....."Not carping at you Hausmann1978, just getting it out there." I realize we're singing the same song.
And the SCA business is a strange one not counting guys from the Vo-Tech.
Bottom line on transfers and classifications, the PIAA does a horrible job similar to how the NCAA has mishandled, should say not handled NIL, transfer portal, etc before these issues got to court.
What's new....?....realizing we are poorly led/managed in so many instances, across the board.

Other then Aliquippa and southern Columbia I think it works. Plus that's why they have an appeal process and I think we will see it work for Aliquippa. I don't see anyway they will lose their appeal and there was a delay on the enrollment numbers because of the votech BS so I think they are working that out too. I believe this is the end of southern Columbias run. They will be forced up where they belong and graduation hurts them as well.