Public schools across Pa. feeling squeezed out by ‘non-boundary’ counterparts

[green_beans]

Not sure if anyone read the article on PaPreplive.com dealing with the issue... it's from a perspective of all sports not just football.. it's a good read.. but doesn't really offer a solution to the issue

http://papreplive.com/2017/07/16/pu...ng-squeezed-out-by-non-boundary-counterparts/

I tried to copy/paste it but it exceeded the size limit

 

[paul from philly]

Not sure if anyone read the article on PaPreplive.com dealing with the issue... it's from a perspective of all sports not just football.. it's a good read.. but doesn't really offer a solution to the issue

http://papreplive.com/2017/07/16/pu...ng-squeezed-out-by-non-boundary-counterparts/

I tried to copy/paste it but it exceeded the size limit

I agree with the notion of separate championships. The race for supremacy has gone nuclear, across the board. The one thing the article did bring up that I'm not crazy about is that "they will remain separate even as far as the season." Am I to take that as no opener between La Salle and North Penn?? That would be a shame. Great history there!!!

 

[tulla]

I agree with the notion of separate championships. The race for supremacy has gone nuclear, across the board. The one thing the article did bring up that I'm not crazy about is that "they will remain separate even as far as the season." Am I to take that as no opener between La Salle and North Penn?? That would be a shame. Great history there!!!

The article suggests PA should follow the Jersey model. My understanding is that at least in certain sports, especially football, the "non-public" and public championships are regarded as the grade A and grade B championships. If this is the case, I'm not sure the PA public school folks would want this. Would they prefer that last year's SJP-North Penn game hadn't happened? And how about all the times (5) LaSalle has lost to public schools in football playoffs sine the PCL entered the PIAA?

The comments about out-of-state players on the Catholic school teams seem to come from a view that this is a fairly new phenomenon. It would be interesting to see just how many schools have out-of-state students/players. SJP always gets mentioned and singled out in such articles. But the fact is that SJP has had students/players from Jersey since at least the time the Ben Franklin bridge was built (1926), and I suspect there were as many football players from Jersey in the Brooks era (pre-PIAA) as there have been in the Infante era. This must have been known to the PIAA when the PCL entered the PIAA.

 

[paul from philly]

The article suggests PA should follow the Jersey model. My understanding is that at least in certain sports, especially football, the "non-public" and public championships are regarded as the grade A and grade B championships. If this is the case, I'm not sure the PA public school folks would want this. Would they prefer that last year's SJP-North Penn game hadn't happened? And how about all the times (5) LaSalle has lost to public schools in football playoffs sine the PCL entered the PIAA?

The comments about out-of-state players on the Catholic school teams seem to come from a view that this is a fairly new phenomenon. It would be interesting to see just how many schools have out-of-state students/players. SJP always gets mentioned and singled out in such articles. But the fact is that SJP has had students/players from Jersey since at least the time the Ben Franklin bridge was built (1926), and I suspect there were as many football players from Jersey in the Brooks era (pre-PIAA) as there have been in the Infante era. This must have been known to the PIAA when the PCL entered the PIAA.

Funny how you brought up the times La Salle lost to the Pubs in the playoffs and you counted them too. 5. Well all those times La Salle was getting beat, St. Joe wasn't even in the game. La Salle had beaten them already. Just sayin'. And I know you'll say "I was just trying to make a point between Pubs and Privates." But how you loved making the point!!!

 

[tulla]

Funny how you brought up the times La Salle lost to the Pubs in the playoffs and you counted them too. 5. Well all those times La Salle was getting beat, St. Joe wasn't even in the game. La Salle had beaten them already Just sayin'. And I know you'll say "I was just trying to make a point between Pubs and Privates." But how you loved making the point!!!

I had a feeling you'd notice that I counted, Paul. But wasn't my point about the Pubs and the Privates true? Each of the three years the Prep won the state championship they had at least one very close playoff game against a public school (Frankford and Neshaminy in '13, Parkland and Pine-Richland in '14, and North Penn in '16).

 

[paul from philly]

I had a feeling you'd notice that I counted, Paul. But wasn't my point about the Pubs and the Privates true? Each of the three years the Prep won the state championship they had at least one very close playoff game against a public school (Frankford and Neshaminy in '13, Parkland and Pine-Richland in '14, and North Penn in '16).

Did I call that or what?? Almost verbatim!! You are a piece of work Tulla!!!

 

[tulla]

Did I call that or what?? Almost verbatim!! You are a piece of work Tulla!!!

I humbly accept the compliment.

 

[new2pa]

I had a feeling you'd notice that I counted, Paul. But wasn't my point about the Pubs and the Privates true? Each of the three years the Prep won the state championship they had at least one very close playoff game against a public school (Frankford and Neshaminy in '13, Parkland and Pine-Richland in '14, and North Penn in '16).

Don't remind me... Trailing by 1 P-R Defense had a 3rd and 5 with about 2 minutes to go. Gave up 40 yard TD run on that play. They get that stop, and based on how that game was going, P-R would have had a better than 50% chance to win.

 

[tulla]

Don't remind me... Trailing by 1 P-R Defense had a 3rd and 5 with about 2 minutes to go. Gave up 40 yard TD run on that play. They get that stop, and based on how that game was going, P-R would have had a better than 50% chance to win.

What happened to the P-R QB who played a great game that night? As I remember, he was originally going to enroll at Penn but then switched (to Pitt?).

 

[new2pa]

What happened to the P-R QB who played a great game that night? As I remember, he was originally going to enroll at Penn but then switched (to Pitt?).

He is at Pitt. Redshirt Sophomore this year. Currently listed as a 2 on the depth chart behind the USC transfer (Max Brown). But hearing good things that he may end up earning the starter's job in fall camp.

 

[Stalker]

I think what you’ll find when someone says “yeah, but so-and-so Public school gave such-and-such Private school a run for the money is that the Public school mentioned had an inordinately extraordinary team that year, eg Pine Richland and Parkland 2014, 2015….and that inordinately extraordinary teams are far more likely to occur at Private, Non Boundary schools than Public schools.

Good as they can be, whether that’s Central Dauphin, Parkland, North Allegheny or North Penne, none of them have the steady stream of talent pouring into the school like the Privates do, meaning teams like Central Catholic, St. Joe’s, Wood and McDevitt who have committed to being power programs. Even the smaller established powerhouse factories like Clairton, Dunmore, Aliquippa and Southern can’t match the Privates on a regular basis.

 

[tulla]

I think what you’ll find when someone says “yeah, but so-and-so Public school gave such-and-such Private school a run for the money is that the Public school mentioned had an inordinately extraordinary team that year, eg Pine Richland and Parkland 2014, 2015….and that inordinately extraordinary teams are far more likely to occur at Private, Non Boundary schools than Public schools.

Good as they can be, whether that’s Central Dauphin, Parkland, North Allegheny or North Penne, none of them have the steady stream of talent pouring into the school like the Privates do, meaning teams like Central Catholic, St. Joe’s, Wood and McDevitt who have committed to being power programs. Even the smaller established powerhouse factories like Clairton, Dunmore, Aliquippa and Southern can’t match the Privates on a regular basis.

I see your point, but I wonder if North Penn last year or Pine-Richland in '14 would have preferred separate public and private playoffs. Maybe they would--I don't know. Has Beck said anything?

And do you think the conversation will change if, say, North Penn or a western public school wins the 6A championship and a public school wins 5A this year?

 

[new2pa]

I think the comment by stalker above that the public's need "inordinately extraordinary team" largely holds true to form. In 2014 for PR it was definitely the case with DiNucci having an all-time great year. This year could be similar with Jurkovec being a unique talent. In both cases, they were surrounded by very strong senior classes with a few underclassmen sprinkled in.

An interesting note is that in the last in the last 15 years (since 2003), there have only been 4 WPIAL champs that I know of (McKeesport, USC, BP, Woody) that were not private (PCC) or public's that benefited significantly from transfer kids. The public that won from that time period were:

NA in 2010-2012 had the Kugler boys and Leftwich.
PR in 2014 had Gaston and Williams
PR in 2017 has Kenny White
PCC is PCC
NA in 2017 has Porter and a move in WR

 

[Stalker]

I see your point, but I wonder if North Penn last year or Pine-Richland in '14 would have preferred separate public and private playoffs. Maybe they would--I don't know. Has Beck said anything?

And do you think the conversation will change if, say, North Penn or a western public school wins the 6A championship and a public school wins 5A this year?

No tulla I don’t think it will change. Perception is perception and it’s getting more hard boiled every year. In fact I believe a Public school wins it this year with Pine Richland and Wilson fielding great teams out of the West. CV and CD will battle Wilson as always with PCC and NA battling PR. The East has Emmaus and Easton looking good (coaching?) while D1 has a strong candidate in Coatesville. The Publics are looking good this year.

 

[tulla]

No tulla I don’t think it will change. Perception is perception and it’s getting more hard boiled every year. In fact I believe a Public school wins it this year with Pine Richland and Wilson fielding great teams out of the West. CV and CD will battle Wilson as always with PCC and NA battling PR. The East has Emmaus and Easton looking good (coaching?) while D1 has a strong candidate in Coatesville. The Publics are looking good this year.

I'm curious. Do you think the big public schools (North Penn, Easton, Wilson, NA, etc.) would prefer the playoffs to have two streams (public and private) rather than one? I remember 2003 and all the back-and-forth about whether NP or SJP had the better team. (Of course, they couldn't play since the PCL wasn't in the PIAA.)

You may well be right about views hardening, but I think there's a chance that if two public schools meet in the 6A championship after beating two high-profile private schools the views of some will change--especially if most of the other classifications are won by public schools.

I also wonder if all the attention given to out-of-state players isn't misrepresenting things. Does any school other than SJP have more than one or two such players? Do LaSalle and Wood have any? (I never thought, after getting home at 8:30 after getting bused back to the Prep after practice on Belmont Plateau, showering and changing at the school, and then taking public transit back to Jersey, that we Jersey players were a particular advantage for the Prep. I also realize some things have changed in nearly 50 years.)

 

[JACKY6996]

I think the comment by stalker above that the public's need "inordinately extraordinary team" largely holds true to form. In 2014 for PR it was definitely the case with DiNucci having an all-time great year. This year could be similar with Jurkovec being a unique talent. In both cases, they were surrounded by very strong senior classes with a few underclassmen sprinkled in.

An interesting note is that in the last in the last 15 years (since 2003), there have only been 4 WPIAL champs that I know of (McKeesport, USC, BP, Woody) that were not private (PCC) or public's that benefited significantly from transfer kids. The public that won from that time period were:

NA in 2010-2012 had the Kugler boys and Leftwich.
PR in 2014 had Gaston and Williams
PR in 2017 has Kenny White
PCC is PCC
NA in 2017 has Porter and a move in WR

Porter used to go to PR in 8th grade. For a WR its interesting some kids pick NA, you may catch 10 passes all year in art walkers offense. Believe he could be a full time CB though.

 

[BucksFB]

The out of state comments seem silly. Anytime you have a private school near a state border that is a possibility especially when Prep has had NJ students for 100 years....Times have changed and are not changing back, Prep has recently had so much success they have attracted players from Easton, PA, Toms River, NJ and other Central/North Jersey towns. No coach was recruiting there, these players families sought out the prep, like they do other successful programs like PR, NP, Wood, LS, IA teams etc...and now Harrisburg. Success is attractive, bottom line.

If they separate public from private again, which is probably the right thing to do to stop all the complaining from fans and coaches, the publics might end up watered down in a declining football demographic in PA. I would suspect you would see a more players seek out a private opportunity to be a part of the private league and that talent pool and exposure, perceived or real.

And of course the argument and complaints will just switch to which public school had which transfer from where. Also, the famous NP is too big complaint, that will go off the charts, even with 6 classes. Maybe we should got to 10 and have NP, Reading, Upper Darby, and Pennsbury in 10A.

As a player I always wanted to play the best, even when you don't have a shot, you still think you do, especially in HS. The harder the schedule the better. As a public school fan, I get it, but times have changed, and I think the PIAA and the public schools would miss the PCL and the private schools and would just complain about other issues...

I maintain we are lucky to have passionate quality coaches that have built solid programs both public and private and have quality football players that are fun to watch. I look forward to another great season all the posts and usual complaints .......

 

[Fletchster1]

Are the attendance numbers drastically different when a private/open enrollment school is involved in playoff/championship games?

 

[Stalker]

I'm curious. Do you think the big public schools (North Penn, Easton, Wilson, NA, etc.) would prefer the playoffs to have two streams (public and private) rather than one? I remember 2003 and all the back-and-forth about whether NP or SJP had the better team. (Of course, they couldn't play since the PCL wasn't in the PIAA.)

You may well be right about views hardening, but I think there's a chance that if two public schools meet in the 6A championship after beating two high-profile private schools the views of some will change--especially if most of the other classifications are won by public schools.

I also wonder if all the attention given to out-of-state players isn't misrepresenting things. Does any school other than SJP have more than one or two such players? Do LaSalle and Wood have any? (I never thought, after getting home at 8:30 after getting bused back to the Prep after practice on Belmont Plateau, showering and changing at the school, and then taking public transit back to Jersey, that we Jersey players were a particular advantage for the Prep. I also realize some things have changed in nearly 50 years.)

I’d guess both the Publics and Privates….not just the Pubs….would like a split making it easier for both to win medals. The squawk is understandably coming from the Pubs with medals (more recently) flowing to teams without boundaries.
Don’t know about your second point as Publics have defeated high profile Privates before but that gets back to the premise of my initial point; how many teams come along like PR/Park----14/15?
And who knows about out-of-state numbers? St. Joe’s has established themselves as a National team which puts them in the spotlight, sometimes crosshairs. There is irony here as this is what they’ve strived for, excepting the crosshairs. Wood/LaSalle haven’t reached that status despite having tremendous teams over the years especially Wood. But, whether LS, AW or SJ have more players from NJ falls on deaf ears when measured against the larger reality of it speakng to the tremendous advantage teams without boundaries have.