Dan Connor New HC at Carroll
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Congrats to a great guy that I'm sure will be a great coach. He always seemed like a coach on the field when he played. Interested to see his staff. Great hire for AC.
With the change in tuition structure at Carroll I really feel they are a sleeping giant in the pcl. Looking from the outside, there is only one move for Carroll and that is to take direct aim at the other 5A power in the PCL. They voted ok on moving to the big division in the pcl...which does NOT benefit them as they presently stand. This is gonna be fun.
This is a nice hire, but why should we assume the program will improve. Joe Powell is a first rate coach, but if you don't have the talent you won't win. This program really struggles with numbers and more then likely will continue to struggle. In my opinion ft Powell couldn't get them over the hump the new staff will experience the same issues.
I don't disagree that coach Powell couldn't have done it. Not at all. I think the new pres. is bringing in coach Connor as his guy. Prob. not fair but the way it is. My reasoning is that there seems to be a concerted plan to get things moving to the upside at AC. I am an outsider,but looking from my view it seems this new hire is part of that plan. So I would expect to see a difference in getting the numbers up that makes this hire make a lot of sense.
I know Connor comes from a CYO background, but does anyone see him camping out at Sunday afternoon CYO games trying to get the next great one to CarroL? That is the lifeline of the PCL right now and he will need to do it well if Carroll is to succeed-especially in the division they are in. The hoops coach seems to do it very well and seems to have the support of the school in doing it.
Just wondering if Carroll is to put more emphasis on football whether the pool is large enough in the relevant parts of Chester, Delaware, and Montgomery counties for all the schools (including Malvern and the other Inter-Acs) that will be fishing there.
Hey Tull.......it isn't a question of whether the lake is large enough, its a question of whether you have the right bait right?
This is where the market determines change in my opinion. In order for AC to be effective, some kids who would have gone to a Malvern, a Prep..they would go to AC. That has to be supposition. Whether it is achievable or not......that is the question.
I think there are a lot of people in the AC community who honestly feel that lack of competition or an option is leading kids to IA's and other schools. Before anyone scoffs....I will say it worked at a heck of a lot of other schools.
This is where the market determines change in my opinion. In order for AC to be effective, some kids who would have gone to a Malvern, a Prep..they would go to AC. That has to be supposition. Whether it is achievable or not......that is the question.
I think there are a lot of people in the AC community who honestly feel that lack of competition or an option is leading kids to IA's and other schools. Before anyone scoffs....I will say it worked at a heck of a lot of other schools.
Best of luck to Dan. However lets not kid ourselves as to what its going to take here or at any other archdiocesan school in Delaware County to be a legitimate contender. Money and lots of it year after year. You can spend 50 hours a week at cyo practices and games. Everybody has the same set of eyes and sees the same players. You want studs, you need the dollars to match what the deeper pocketed programs have.
There's no sleeping giant waiting to be awoken with an archdiocesan education that costs $11,500 a year. Or $9200 or $7800 or whatever number you want to charge. The really good kids and the really big kids are getting significant tuition assistance at the top of the PCL and throughout the inter ac. Additionally they are getting a private school education that people see value in and are willing to pay for in a lot of instances for a myriad of reasons both real and perceived.
Additionally at this price point the archdiocese has placed itself in it drives loyal customers to the local public schools especially in areas where the education is good. So Carroll, O'Hara, Bonner have to compete with the aforementioned inter acs, preps, etc but they also have to compete with Conestoga, Garnet Valley, Marple, Springfield, Haverford, Radnor etc. It's no wild accident these programs are all way better than they were 20 years ago while the Catholic schools are worse.
This fantasy that the Frank Foxes of the world can create some pseudo private school model in between free public education and the more expensive private school education has a fatal flaw. The curriculum is controlled by archdiocese and the teaching staff is controlled by the catholic school teachers union. The pay has always stunk in Catholic school system and even more importantly the pension is absolutely horrendous. This creates a three fold educational problem. First you can't hire good young teachers because its a shrinking system and you have to honor current union teachers for the roles you have. Second because the pension is so awful older teachers never can afford to leave and teach well past their shelf life out of financial necessity. Third if you are lucky enough to hire a good young teacher they often leave for greener pastures of a public school job and the oasis that is PSERS.
These presidents have their hands tied. They can raise funds and hire administrative staff. That's about it. Raising funds to defer tuition is very important but if the quality of your education isn't improving as your price point goes up that's a losing battle. If you can't control who teaches in your building pretty hard to ensure the quality of instruction goes up. Carroll enrollment went up because they raised money and spent money to get kids in the school via grants and scholarships. Now they increase tuition to 11,500.
One very simple reason. Good business. There is a large contingent of folks in the Carroll footprint who want and feel obligated to use a Catholic high school. Malvern and Prep and the girls schools are too expensive for them. They live in upper middle class areas of western delaware county etc. In their minds and in social settings it is more socially acceptable to go to Carroll than O'Hara or Bonner because it's on the main line so it's like private school lite. Frank Fox is smart. End of the day his education is same as Carroll or Bonner and he knows it because of who calls the shots. However if the perception is its better I'm going to charge you another $2500 for your thinking that its better and the right to the Matsonford road address of your kids school.
Archdiocese sucks at the education business. If these schools could actually be private schools with presidents setting policy and boards with real control they could have a chance. However right now it's a system where the schools have to pay ex per pupil to downtown and the union and archdiocese control the buildings and who is in them. Presidents job is a fundraising job and build infrastructure to get people in the building. Flawed at its core unfortunately despite the efforts of a lot of good people. For all these reasons plus the fact that Carroll is in the Red Division next two years I see this as the hardest job in the entire league.
There's no sleeping giant waiting to be awoken with an archdiocesan education that costs $11,500 a year. Or $9200 or $7800 or whatever number you want to charge. The really good kids and the really big kids are getting significant tuition assistance at the top of the PCL and throughout the inter ac. Additionally they are getting a private school education that people see value in and are willing to pay for in a lot of instances for a myriad of reasons both real and perceived.
Additionally at this price point the archdiocese has placed itself in it drives loyal customers to the local public schools especially in areas where the education is good. So Carroll, O'Hara, Bonner have to compete with the aforementioned inter acs, preps, etc but they also have to compete with Conestoga, Garnet Valley, Marple, Springfield, Haverford, Radnor etc. It's no wild accident these programs are all way better than they were 20 years ago while the Catholic schools are worse.
This fantasy that the Frank Foxes of the world can create some pseudo private school model in between free public education and the more expensive private school education has a fatal flaw. The curriculum is controlled by archdiocese and the teaching staff is controlled by the catholic school teachers union. The pay has always stunk in Catholic school system and even more importantly the pension is absolutely horrendous. This creates a three fold educational problem. First you can't hire good young teachers because its a shrinking system and you have to honor current union teachers for the roles you have. Second because the pension is so awful older teachers never can afford to leave and teach well past their shelf life out of financial necessity. Third if you are lucky enough to hire a good young teacher they often leave for greener pastures of a public school job and the oasis that is PSERS.
These presidents have their hands tied. They can raise funds and hire administrative staff. That's about it. Raising funds to defer tuition is very important but if the quality of your education isn't improving as your price point goes up that's a losing battle. If you can't control who teaches in your building pretty hard to ensure the quality of instruction goes up. Carroll enrollment went up because they raised money and spent money to get kids in the school via grants and scholarships. Now they increase tuition to 11,500.
One very simple reason. Good business. There is a large contingent of folks in the Carroll footprint who want and feel obligated to use a Catholic high school. Malvern and Prep and the girls schools are too expensive for them. They live in upper middle class areas of western delaware county etc. In their minds and in social settings it is more socially acceptable to go to Carroll than O'Hara or Bonner because it's on the main line so it's like private school lite. Frank Fox is smart. End of the day his education is same as Carroll or Bonner and he knows it because of who calls the shots. However if the perception is its better I'm going to charge you another $2500 for your thinking that its better and the right to the Matsonford road address of your kids school.
Archdiocese sucks at the education business. If these schools could actually be private schools with presidents setting policy and boards with real control they could have a chance. However right now it's a system where the schools have to pay ex per pupil to downtown and the union and archdiocese control the buildings and who is in them. Presidents job is a fundraising job and build infrastructure to get people in the building. Flawed at its core unfortunately despite the efforts of a lot of good people. For all these reasons plus the fact that Carroll is in the Red Division next two years I see this as the hardest job in the entire league.
Speed it's Saturday morning for CYO and you bet Dan will do it. However I do have to correct one thing that a lot of public school guys miss. CYO is not necessarily the lifeline of the top notch programs in PCL, ie Prep. It's way wider than that. This is why people don't understand how good these programs have actually become in comparison to boundary schools. Prep canvasses the earth for players especially skill players. I would go out on a limb and say there is not one eighth grade player that played in CYO this year from Delaware or Chester County as an eighth grader other than Rightly from Holy Cross who would ever be good enough to be in the backfield for Prep as a varsity player. They will comb every middle school, weight program etc from south jersey to easton to get these kids. Their net is incredibly wide. There are plenty of kids who played in CYO backfields who will play LB, CB, DL for Prep because they are dam good but not good enough to get the ball there. However if your reach is go do real well and just get CYO players from Delco and Chesco to go to a place like Carroll you are going to get destroyed by the Prep, Wood, etc. Plus you are invariably going to lose kids to Malvern, Episcopal and Haverford School. The days of a delco centric team competing with the prep are over. Going to need city kids, norristown kids, montco kids, kids from everywhere that fit different roles. You know who gets a ton of great CYO kids. Roman. Their talent not even close to good enough.
Shfoot that could happen. However it's in the same note as above. You leave an excellent school district in W-S for the right to pay $11,500 at Carroll. And to do what exactly in the Catholic League Red? Has anyone watched Carroll, Bonner and O'Hara play Wood the last four years? It's ridiculous. Now you get that each week in the Red.
Not to be a flippant jackass but if the entire Strath Haven 2015 team transferred to Carroll before the beginning of last season and Carroll played in the Red as currently constituted who do they beat other than Ryan? I know people from Delco think there is no way the gap can be that wide that fast. It's that wide. Go watch a Judge play. For Carroll to be .500 in the league they are in they will have to be the best team in Delaware County by leaps and bounds going forward. Vince Lombardi would be fortunate to win a league game with Carroll in that division with what they have right now. It's a heruclean task. Wish Dan luck but that is a brutal job. Helluva a lot more involved there than coaching football.
GG. They seem to do very well getting kids for basketball and many girls sports . Can the same model be used for the football program ?
Gang Green, Roman has gotten a lot of CYO players in the past, that is correct.
The thing here is over the past 4 years the elite 8th grade CYO player has gone to SJP over Roman. Up until this past season, when has Roman's talent not been good enough? I recall a couple of poor seasons but I wouldn't pin that on lack of talent. You may disagree but CYO players are over the SJP roster. Yes I know D'Andre Swift played for Enon and not a CYO program but players like Dumond & Mooney are CYO kids, as well as some of the soph's that will be a key in their future success.
With all of that being said, I totally agree with you about having to look outside of CYO to find all of the talent. There is so much talent out there there is plenty to go around. Unfortunately at the end of the day it comes down to dollars and cents.
The thing here is over the past 4 years the elite 8th grade CYO player has gone to SJP over Roman. Up until this past season, when has Roman's talent not been good enough? I recall a couple of poor seasons but I wouldn't pin that on lack of talent. You may disagree but CYO players are over the SJP roster. Yes I know D'Andre Swift played for Enon and not a CYO program but players like Dumond & Mooney are CYO kids, as well as some of the soph's that will be a key in their future success.
With all of that being said, I totally agree with you about having to look outside of CYO to find all of the talent. There is so much talent out there there is plenty to go around. Unfortunately at the end of the day it comes down to dollars and cents.
SH Foot your argument makes no sense whatsoever. Haven was just named the #2 school in the whole state. People are going to pay the already high taxes and Carroll tuition to play for DC? Where did DC learn a lot of what he is preaching? From Kevin Clancy, who is still at Haven? Haven going downhill, made the playoffs just a few short years ago and still have the best record in the state in the playoffs. So they have had some injuries and some kids not coming out for the team because of fear of concussions, and you say abandon ship? Where's the loyalty to the man that made Haven a state power for over two decades. Who has won something like 13 district titles and two state titles? No loyalty, two legitimate down years and let's go play somewhere else? With fans and friends of the program like you who needs enemies. The football team already is getting ready for next year and apparently they have 60 kids out for next years team. Numbers going up not down. They also have middle school program with over 50 kids playing football and a strong freshman team this year. So maybe the program that has brought so much success to the community could be given a break for a couple down years and encouraged to rebound with the winning est coach in SE PA history.
Delco, I would love to disagree with you, but all your points are very valid. Lots of reasons for the changes, but AC is in a tough spot. Your argument is funny because you laid out some fantastic reasons why a no border school like a AC has tough time competing against a SH. Not trying argue that tho! Considering AC goes to big division, I still like the hire. I think all schools have to measure success different. .500 record and good game in playoffs may equal success. AC is used to competiing in PCL. Even with a great hoops season last year, they didn't win the league, didn't win the district, and got lucky being sent out west. Still great year. I would think admin is trying to get some sort of great year out of football team also.
Speed basketball needs 7 guys to make a difference. Plus if you know anything about BLOCS most basketball kids are eligible for OSTC credit money so basketball way easier to fix with state tax dollar money. Carroll does good job with BLOCS. That's the key to all these schools. Football you are going to need 40 to 50 guys on assistance and many won't be BLOCS eligible. This means outside donor hard dollars. I know from outside looking in this whole BLOCS, OSTC, EITC, hard dollars, 503c makes no sense. But its the whole thing from a funding perspective.
Girls sports are different. Carroll gets a ton of full payer girls because of exactly what I described above. People from Drexel Hill to West Chester who see it as private school lite and see Carroll as a much better environment for their girls than Prendie or O'Hara but don't want to pay for Villa, Merion etc and come from a Catholic grade school. They want their kids associated with what they perceive as main line environment and main line type classmates. In my opinion this is exactly why Fox is charging more at Carroll because he understands this intently.
No doubt Carroll girls sports are a draw. So is O"Hara field hockey, basketball, track etc. However a basketball team is 12 girls. Not like 100 kids are coming to a school to play basketball. Dan Connor would be great guy to play for if you are 14 year old kid making a decision or a parent. Reality is right now you will be paying 11,500 for an archdiocesan education and putting the kid in a football situation where they might not win a league game for 2 years and many weeks won't even be competitive. Neumann Gorretti a top 10 baskets program in the state. Might not field a football team next year. Why the football guys will go to Roman, West, Judge, Imotep, GA, Penn Charter etc, etc. The Bonner, O'Hara and Carroll football jobs are incredibly hard due to their proximity to one another and there proximity to Malvern, Episcopal, Haverford School, Prep plus some excellent school districts. I'm a product of the system but have grave concerns at this price point. Beginning to think archdiocese wants out of education business with this tact. Would love for these to be stand alone schools.
Delco: You do know kids from the school district go to catholic schools? This has been going on since I was a kid in the district. Stop it already with the district titles and state titles. Everyone already knows it. You sound like a broken record all the time. And by the way, it's 11 district titles get it right! Where did DC learn most of what he's preaching, from his father and brothers growing up before he got in the Haven system. Don't you listen to any of Dan's interviews???? One of the keys to Haven's successes was many of the kids up to the 2010 season played for Rose Tree Colts. Mark Jones use to come back and visit from time to time and watch games. Rose Tree helped those kids transition easy to middle school and high school. There aren't any Rose Tree kids playing at Haven anymore. They're all raw. As far as Freshman team, you call 4-4 a strong team?
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Now that we are name dropping 8th grade players. Rightly is very talented but there is are others who had a great season and won't be on the SJ Roster next year. See timestamp @ 4:50
CYO I hear you. The comment is no way disparaging to Roman. More along the lines that people out here in Delco think you go recruit the CYO's again and problem solved. I know how many good CYO players Roman gets. And we both know a ton of these CYO kids aren't even CYO kids. They are one year players that come over from weight etc to get noticed/recruited. Roman has done well with players. Way better than any catholic school in delco. In another league they would be a force to be reckoned with but the Red is insane. Carroll has a long, long way to go to be Roman is my point. They could win every CYO player in delco and it's not enough in my opinion to beat Prep, LaSalle, Wood. If they want to go cherry pick the best hs players off rosters down here a la Wood maybe.
CYO is actually a perfect microcosm of what is going on at HS level in PCL. Fewer teams, more concentration of talent, and teams canvassing the earth to put together super powers year after year. Single parish teams under the same banner as 12 parish AAU teams. Delaware County in same situation at grade school and HS levels. 20 years behind waiting for the mills to reopen. Given the quality of school districts and the existence of Prep, Malvern, Episcopal, Haverford School there aren't enough football players down here to support Carroll, Bonner and O'Hara in a tem mile radius. If one of these schools comes up with a 150 to 250k a year budget and runs the other two off maybe. If not it will be more of the same. Just like CYO. Wondering why 14 kids from the grade school and 12 legitimate boundary Catholic CCD kids can't compete. Hello landscape changed. It's not 1985. The other guys are getting one year players, holding back kids, ignore parish qualifications, plant kids on rosters and basically put the best possible team they can on the field with so many parish affliations that Ernst and Young could not keep track of players.
In Delco we have 18 teams where kids can't play because they wore the wrong belt to CCD or missed team mass. They we whine that they were undefeated in sixth, what happened. What happened is its not 1985. The kids that just thumped you didn't play cyo in sixth grade. They are new to the league to get the money. Hundreds of thousands of dollars at stake. That's what happened. Delco in a time warp bubble. It's also what make it interesting. When Dan Connor, BJ Hogan and Dave Wood stand on enough CYO sidelines everything will be right with the world again and Carroll, OHara and Bonner will assume their rightful place. The premise is insane. It was all Powel, Algeo and Bernhardts fault I guess. Laughable. Hardest jobs around. Gotta raise the money and get the players and beat out all those other programs.
Two things that I come away with from this thread:
1. It seems as if CYO football is as dirty as AAU.
2. The fact that parents are making 8th grade highlight tapes and putting it out there for their kid to get recruited is emblematic of the sleeziness that HS football has become, if this is what it has turned into. It's just sad and pathetic on so many levels.
1. It seems as if CYO football is as dirty as AAU.
2. The fact that parents are making 8th grade highlight tapes and putting it out there for their kid to get recruited is emblematic of the sleeziness that HS football has become, if this is what it has turned into. It's just sad and pathetic on so many levels.
aaaaah. Bingo D1, bingo. GG is pretty damn spot on with the CYO stuff. The world has shifted, and delco is caught in it. CYO programs routinely have 5 to 6 to more parishes under one name. Look at the finalist this year...two groups right on top of each other, and they thrashed the rest of the archdiocese. How many "cyo" kids on the rosters? Who knows? But that is what I think GG is saying AC will be playing. I am a fan.....but he is right...tough jobs.
Speed Dave wood will be in green next year. But no I have no direct knowledge of that. Just conjecture on my part. Ridley green or bonner green. Don't think bonner wants to wait until a feb school board meeting. So it's the old bird in hand vs two in the bush.
GG. From your posts last year I understand that you had some knowledge of the O'Hara HC search. They didn't want Wood, is that correct? And if so why?
There has to be some more guys out there for either of these jobs. If Wood didn't impress the O'Hara people then who did? I find it hard to believe he's the only option out there.
There has to be some more guys out there for either of these jobs. If Wood didn't impress the O'Hara people then who did? I find it hard to believe he's the only option out there.
Delco: You do know kids from the school district go to catholic schools? This has been going on since I was a kid in the district. Stop it already with the district titles and state titles. Everyone already knows it. You sound like a broken record all the time. And by the way, it's 11 district titles get it right! Where did DC learn most of what he's preaching, from his father and brothers growing up before he got in the Haven system. Don't you listen to any of Dan's interviews???? One of the keys to Haven's successes was many of the kids up to the 2010 season played for Rose Tree Colts. Mark Jones use to come back and visit from time to time and watch games. Rose Tree helped those kids transition easy to middle school and high school. There aren't any Rose Tree kids playing at Haven anymore. They're all raw. As far as Freshman team, you call 4-4 a strong team?
Strath Haven over the years has lost very few kids to catholic schools, especially any real good kids. I have heard that is changing lately buy historically not at all. DC talks glowingly of Coach Clancy whenever he is asked, and I have listened to the interviews. You are in love with Rosetree, had some impact but minor in the state championship years. The Connors and Mulherns never played Rose tree and they were the heart and soul of those teams. Mark Jones being one of a few exceptions. . The freshman team is a strong team they played everyone close and beat some quality opponents. Did you see them play? Records don't tell the whole story. Go back to my statement about with friends like you..... clearly have an agenda against Clancy, why don't you just admit it?
Strath Haven over the years has lost very few kids to catholic schools, especially any real good kids. I have heard that is changing lately buy historically not at all. DC talks glowingly of Coach Clancy whenever he is asked, and I have listened to the interviews. You are in love with Rosetree, had some impact but minor in the state championship years. The Connors and Mulherns never played Rose tree and they were the heart and soul of those teams. Mark Jones being one of a few exceptions. . The freshman team is a strong team they played everyone close and beat some quality opponents. Did you see them play? Records don't tell the whole story. Go back to my statement about with friends like you..... clearly have an agenda against Clancy, why don't you just admit it?
He will probably end up at Downingtown so that Chesmont guy can keep griping about poor little Shanahan.
Cheers,
Busch