Not siding with Alaquippa but can someone explain his S.C. never has to move up? I don’t quite understand the success formula. They win a lot, do they not get any transfers?
Aliquippa forced up again? PIAA wrong or right?
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Here's from the PIAA handbook. I excluded the part on how enrollment is calculated, but your enrollment is step one. Step 2 is the success formula. Step 3 is transfers.
Success Formula
All schools will have their success in post-regular season rated by the following scale.
1 point for qualification to an entry level inter-district championship contest.
2 points for qualification to a quarter-final inter-district contest.
3 points for qualification to a semi-final inter-district contest.
4 points for qualification to a final inter-district contest.
A. In the previous two-year cycle, Teams will receive points based upon their highest qualification in the post-season Inter-District Championship Tournament. If a school’s team achieves 6 points or greater, the Team may move up 1 classification for the next classification cycle in that sport and gender based upon the number of transfers the school’s Team received under the transfer formula.
B. If a school’s Team that participates in a higher enrollment classification obtains 3, 4, or 5 success points cumulative in the two-year cycle, that Team will remain in that higher enrollment classification for the next two-year cycle.
Transfers
A school’s Team may receive transfer students without affecting their classification if the student enters their new school during the traditional natural break (8th grade to 9th grade). Any sport specific transfer after the natural break transfer will subject the student to a possible post-season ban for one year under ArticleVI of the PIAA Bylaws if the transfer is after the student was eligible to participate in a 10th grade season and based upon the district committee or regional panel determination of eligibility.
A. In the previous two-year classification cycle, if a school’s Team receives 6 points in that previous cycle and accepts transfer students by sport and gender that are equal to or exceeds the number permitted for that sport, the school will move up 1 classification.
B. If a school’s Team accumulates 6 points or greater in the previous cycle but does not receive transfer students, it will remain in their same enrollment classification for the next two-year cycle(unless the school would move up due to their enrollment numbers).
C. If a school’s Team had moved up in class and achieves 1 or 2 success points in a cycle and has transfer students equal to or exceeds the number by sport, the Team will remain up in that classification cycle for the next two-year cycle.
D. If a school’s Team had moved up in class and achieves 1 or 2 success points in a cycle and has transfer students that are zero or less than the number by sport, the Team may move down in classification cycle for the next two-year cycle.
E. If a school’s Team had moved up in class and achieves zero success points in a cycle and has transfer students that are equal or greater than the number by sport, the Team may move down in classification cycle for the next two-year cycle.
Transfer Limits
Team Sports and Transfers: to trigger the transfer portion of the success formula, the following will apply.
Basketball 1 or more transfers
Tennis 1 or more transfers
Wrestling 2 or more transfers
Baseball 2 or more transfers
Softball 2 or more transfers
Soccer 2 or more transfers
Field Hockey 2 or more transfers
Volleyball 2 or more transfers
Lacrosse 2 or more transfers
Football 3 or more transfers
Success Formula
All schools will have their success in post-regular season rated by the following scale.
1 point for qualification to an entry level inter-district championship contest.
2 points for qualification to a quarter-final inter-district contest.
3 points for qualification to a semi-final inter-district contest.
4 points for qualification to a final inter-district contest.
A. In the previous two-year cycle, Teams will receive points based upon their highest qualification in the post-season Inter-District Championship Tournament. If a school’s team achieves 6 points or greater, the Team may move up 1 classification for the next classification cycle in that sport and gender based upon the number of transfers the school’s Team received under the transfer formula.
B. If a school’s Team that participates in a higher enrollment classification obtains 3, 4, or 5 success points cumulative in the two-year cycle, that Team will remain in that higher enrollment classification for the next two-year cycle.
Transfers
A school’s Team may receive transfer students without affecting their classification if the student enters their new school during the traditional natural break (8th grade to 9th grade). Any sport specific transfer after the natural break transfer will subject the student to a possible post-season ban for one year under ArticleVI of the PIAA Bylaws if the transfer is after the student was eligible to participate in a 10th grade season and based upon the district committee or regional panel determination of eligibility.
A. In the previous two-year classification cycle, if a school’s Team receives 6 points in that previous cycle and accepts transfer students by sport and gender that are equal to or exceeds the number permitted for that sport, the school will move up 1 classification.
B. If a school’s Team accumulates 6 points or greater in the previous cycle but does not receive transfer students, it will remain in their same enrollment classification for the next two-year cycle(unless the school would move up due to their enrollment numbers).
C. If a school’s Team had moved up in class and achieves 1 or 2 success points in a cycle and has transfer students equal to or exceeds the number by sport, the Team will remain up in that classification cycle for the next two-year cycle.
D. If a school’s Team had moved up in class and achieves 1 or 2 success points in a cycle and has transfer students that are zero or less than the number by sport, the Team may move down in classification cycle for the next two-year cycle.
E. If a school’s Team had moved up in class and achieves zero success points in a cycle and has transfer students that are equal or greater than the number by sport, the Team may move down in classification cycle for the next two-year cycle.
Transfer Limits
Team Sports and Transfers: to trigger the transfer portion of the success formula, the following will apply.
Basketball 1 or more transfers
Tennis 1 or more transfers
Wrestling 2 or more transfers
Baseball 2 or more transfers
Softball 2 or more transfers
Soccer 2 or more transfers
Field Hockey 2 or more transfers
Volleyball 2 or more transfers
Lacrosse 2 or more transfers
Football 3 or more transfers
COMPETITION CLASSIFICATION FORMULA:
A school’s competition classification will be determined by sport and gender using the following formula. All three items will be combined to determine the competitionclassification.
Sport (Enrollment) classification + Success factor + Athletic transfers = Competition Classification
So for Southern Columbia, they're enrollment places them in 2A + They have 8 points in the success factor + they have fewer than 3 transfers, so part (B) of the transfer portion applies, which says they can remain in their enrollment classification.
Basically, the formula is written backwards - it's a two prong test:
1) Do your transfers exceed the threshold (3 in football). IF YES
2) Do you have at least 6 success points in a two-year cycle. IF YES -> go up
Then if you're already up, the test is:
1) Did you have at least 3 success points after moving up? IF YES -> stay up
IF NO
1) Did you reach the transfer threshold (3 in football), NO -> go back down. IF YES
2) Did you have at least 1 success point in a two-year cycle. NO-> go down, IF YES -. stay up
So once you're up, you stay up if you make the first round of the state tournament in a two-year window and have transfers, or at least make a semifinal in a two year window, or two quarterfinals, even without transfers
A school’s competition classification will be determined by sport and gender using the following formula. All three items will be combined to determine the competitionclassification.
Sport (Enrollment) classification + Success factor + Athletic transfers = Competition Classification
So for Southern Columbia, they're enrollment places them in 2A + They have 8 points in the success factor + they have fewer than 3 transfers, so part (B) of the transfer portion applies, which says they can remain in their enrollment classification.
Basically, the formula is written backwards - it's a two prong test:
1) Do your transfers exceed the threshold (3 in football). IF YES
2) Do you have at least 6 success points in a two-year cycle. IF YES -> go up
Then if you're already up, the test is:
1) Did you have at least 3 success points after moving up? IF YES -> stay up
IF NO
1) Did you reach the transfer threshold (3 in football), NO -> go back down. IF YES
2) Did you have at least 1 success point in a two-year cycle. NO-> go down, IF YES -. stay up
So once you're up, you stay up if you make the first round of the state tournament in a two-year window and have transfers, or at least make a semifinal in a two year window, or two quarterfinals, even without transfers
I think it's a stiff and unfair penalty moving to 5A:
Aliquippa's move to 5A could prove more difficult than 3A to 4A as they advance up the classification ladder to bigger rosters/depth for most of the teams concerned and a more difficult caliber of teams playing the Gateways, PHills, Peters, PTrafs, Pines, Woody's, Moon's, etc instead of a lesser diet of 4As....excluding the 4A power-outliers of McKees, Cent Val, TJ, et al.
GO RAVENS.
Aliquippa's move to 5A could prove more difficult than 3A to 4A as they advance up the classification ladder to bigger rosters/depth for most of the teams concerned and a more difficult caliber of teams playing the Gateways, PHills, Peters, PTrafs, Pines, Woody's, Moon's, etc instead of a lesser diet of 4As....excluding the 4A power-outliers of McKees, Cent Val, TJ, et al.
GO RAVENS.
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an even crazier tidbit- is wpial/D7 has 5A teams play non-conference, so you could have Quips v PCC!!
2A size v 6A, crazy
their last several teams would've beaten all except PR in 2022, Penn Trafford in 2021, and Peters last year
they are not victims, they are not at an unfair disadvantage the whole reason they have this "problem" is because they keep bending the rules
stop being the Beaver County all star team if you want sympathy
I don't think so, Peters looked unstoppable until the state semifinals
Aliquippa beat up on a weak field, that Dallas team would've been out in the first round of the wpial playoffs
if they could beat Peters, they need to stop whining about being moved up, i'm sick of people feeling sorry for them
I don't think Peters faced a team with the skill talent that Aliquippa had all season long until they saw Imhotep in the finals.
I was at the Cocalico/PT game. It was the 1st time I saw them all year. I saw Cocalico the week before vs. Ephrata. Quip would've probably beat Cocalico by 3 TD's.
They need to stop bitching because the only thing the PIAA is trying to establish is parity. They have a bigger roster then Harrisburg does. This version of 5A while is still good, it isn't the parkway AAA conference of the early 2000's.
What's so sacred about parity? If you're better, you're better! Nothing like penalizing success. They are not doing anything anyone else can't do.
Yes and no, gotta quote BP here, Quippa is kinda like the beaver county al star team- kids move in and out for sports, mostly before grades 9 and 10. And- i gotta agree w Steel also, the Quips gotta quit bitching. It's a crazy weird situation, but they knew the rules. And- half the 5A and 6A teams in WPIAL- Quips will pound them.
Yes that's right 2020sports. They're doing exactly what you said! I'm repeating myself in saying....anyone can do the same.
I guess they're pissed that the Quips are doing it better than anyone else excluding the privates. What else is there to bitch about from the opponent's point of view?
LOL... as I read and reflect- you recall the movie "The Town?" it's like the PIAA is coming in like the FBI to "investigate and bust up" the little town filled with "dirty cops" living next to NYC (beaver county is the town!)
Parity is the sole purpose behind the success formula's used across the country.
I'm not sure I understand the whole "penalizing success" argument. Generally speaking, whenever you clean out a division, you're moved into a tougher one. I think you reward success by providing better competition.
well PT pounded Pine Richland, they beat the Central team loaded with more talent than Aliquippa
I think Aliquippa would've lost badly to Imhotep too
you think those West Allegheny and Hopewell teams of the early 2000's win 5A today?
no not every school can have countless kids move into their districts to maintain their football team
ha- yea- AND how about the name Sheldon Jeter? remember that one?
and btw- my mistake- the accurate reference for movie is "Cop Land"
yeah Rachel Del Tondo, i thought about mentioning that story too because her fiance was a cop but all the evidence makes it seem like Jeter is the killer
Imhotep would have beaten Quip this year - I don't question that. However, I think Quip would've matched up much better. Peters had nowhere the speed to run with Imhotep. Quip DB's weren't playing 8-9 yards off WR's, because they didn't need to.
The early 00 Parkway conference was rated as one of the top conferences in the country at the time. USA Today or ESPN had an article about it.
The current 5A model is very similar to the old 3A. The majority of the good teams have a bunch of guys going both ways. I would absolutely favor Palko's team(s) over this Peters team. Not Parkway, but I would absolutely have Cherp's teams of that era over this Peters team. I'm not sure this Peters team saw an actual upper level passer all year. Maybe Evans from from Canon Mac. I would take Palko and Dawson over him with ease. Dawson's team went toe to toe with the Justin King Gateway team.
i watched that Gateway/TJ game live on PCN, i wouldn't say they went toe to toe Gateway got a pretty big lead of at least 3 touchdowns and then seemed to take the foot off the gas pedal, I think they won by 2 touchdowns
#1 It's a one-way penalty. You don't see 6A, 5A, etc teams forced down because they're inept. Why should other teams get credit for beating this consistent loser (playoff credit-points), while the Quips get continually penalized for beating larger schools, or for simply winning........excessively!??! Force the losers down instead of other 6A and 5A teams in this eg benefiting.
#2 Where else in any reality are you penalized for success? In the military (AF-Army-other), I got stripes, promotions. In other industries the same, becoming a loadmaster opening a major east coast city to the company's 727-737-heavy program. I wasn't forced to do this with less, or penalized for "on time pulls", fast turn arounds etc.
If that was the case, I'd stay a FT drivee, humping out on OT making more than station or ramp supers.
What if Quip cleans them out too?
1. The NFL Draft. You win more, you pick later in the round.
2. Wrestling tournaments. If there is a 16 man bracket and you're in the 8th/9th seed match, it's not uncommon to see a higher seed in the next round. If you're going to climb the ranks in wrestling, you're going to have to beat better competition in order to do so. Not only that - there are multiple cases in wrestling where we see schools competing with a 1/3 of the enrollment of their opponents because we only have 2 classes. When North Allegheny wrestles Waynesburg, it's a 6A school against a 2A school.
3. Why do we have a mercy rule in HS football? One way of looking at it, is that it penalizes success. It doesn't allow the better team to be as "successful" as they could be.
4. In the business world, the more money you make (success), the more money you're going to pay in taxes.
My buddy who is in the PA HOF is a Beaver County legend. He compares Aliquippa to a race car with heavy modifications racing stock cars. He's not talking about recruiting or anything like that. He's just saying when they walk on the field, they usually have more talent then 90% of their schedule, regardless of their enrollment. It was proven in 2A, 3A, 4A.
Again, I don't think anyone is being penalized for anything. If you look at all of the different competition formulas across the country, the goal is creating parity through competition.
Point I'm making or 'opinion' if you will, is that striving for parity is an absurdity. Perhaps I should cut off 5 inches so I' no longer 6-4....just so the shorter guys have a better chance in hoops or the Dbs can more easily defend me. We are not all equal. I'm not Bill Gates and never will be regardless of artificial means to make that so.
Why does the NCAA have D1, D2, D3 classifications? It's absurd to think what would happen if PSU was put in the PSAC. Sure, PSU has way more resources with regards to money and facilities. But, the biggest resource they have over the PSAC teams is TALENT. Aliquippa has more high end talent then probably 90% of the state regardless of classification. They have a unique environment from the time they're kids where competition is at the crux of what they do. Regardless of if they're homegrown or not, they have something the majority of the state does not.
If we just place teams based solely on enrollment, Aliquippa would decimate 1A and 2A teams. I'm talking with regards that many teams could seriously see there seasons come to an end after playing Aliquippa. In the past few seasons, there wouldn't be a PA team in 1A or 2A who would stay within 50 points of them. The majority of these teams would struggle to field a team the following few weeks. In 2019, I watched a very good Clairton team lose 4-5 starters for several weeks after playing them. That Clairton team was the most talented team in 1A that year. If they didn't put the ball on the ground 4x inside of the 10 yard line vs Farrell, they would have won the state title. They didn't stand a chance vs the Quips. Imagine if Avella or Fairfield had to play them every season? They'd have to install a new scoreboard with 3 digits on it. They literally just beat the #2 team in PA 60-14 in the state final and if they wanted to they could've dropped a 100 on them.
The point is - most of the big football states in America utilize a success/competition formula in classifying their teams. It's no different then what the NCAA does.
**** from the net:
"How do you tell if a school is D1 or D2? The main D1 vs D2 difference is that D1 schools are larger and have marquee sports programs with big budgets. Both D1 and D2 schools can award scholarships, whereas D3 schools aren't allowed to give scholarships to athletes."
(Their bolds).
How is this different than 6A, 5A, 4A, etc? For one, you don't see ANY D3 teams forced to play D2, or D1 teams because they're successful like Aliquippa. D3 Cortland and D2 Harding are not forced to play Michigan and Texas.
Steel. I understand all the points you made and appreciate your going to the detail you did. I simply don't agree with parity and would rather see the system you remined us of in place at the NCAA.
If you're better you're better. Period. Michigan isn't forced to play Alabama, Georgia, Texas, USC, etc simply because they're good. And too bad if Northwestern or Indiana can't keep up. Get better! Or not.
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college teams get punished when they cheat or break the rules
I think you can argue USC hasn't been the same since they got penalized for Reggie Bush receiving gifts, that stuff is legal now but they haven't been a true national powerhouse since those penalities
I think you can argue USC hasn't been the same since they got penalized for Reggie Bush receiving gifts, that stuff is legal now but they haven't been a true national powerhouse since those penalities
Stalk- i get, and agree w your point about parity possibly being bad- but isn't that essentially the goal of FBS moving to the 12 team playoffs? Or the NFL adding teams that can "make the playoffs?" Maybe equal pros and cons?
The goal of an expanded playoff is to make more money. The college game is about nothing but money since NIL and Portal realities. Too bad. Fair (payment), but too bad.
But next year definitely won't see the national champion penalized with a tougher schedule!
Florida State was punished for their schedule last season
undefeated but not enough "big" wins
Since the conclusion of the season, it appears Aliquippa has 5 new transfers coming in. These are high level players.
From Twitter -
1. JJ Works - Central Valley
2. Larry Moon - Central Catholic
3. Sanir Brooks - Central Catholic
4. Justus Starks - North Hills
5. this one still pending but coming
From Twitter -
1. JJ Works - Central Valley
2. Larry Moon - Central Catholic
3. Sanir Brooks - Central Catholic
4. Justus Starks - North Hills
5. this one still pending but coming
ok can people and the media finally stop crying about people being "unfair" to the poor little quips? they have been dirty for decades
hmm i wonder what makes a North hills kid move to Aliquippa
Moon was a freshman all American and has offers from just about every major p5 program, and brooks played some as a frosh last year and has a few offers as well. The starks kid has been at aliquippa, there’s rumbling about Jamar Allen from north hills going there on Twitter but I have not seen anything definitive with that. That’s the surprising one to me, all these other kids are beaver county kids or kids that went to aliquippa before, never heard of someone moving from north hills or the likes to go to aliquippa. Also that’s the one where eligibility will be be in play if true.
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