6A Eastern Final
- Thread starter MC1975
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DTW is a run-first team. They ran for approximately 10 yards vs CB West. Let's assume that SJP is better up front than CBW, and DTW has to drop back and throw the ball against the SJP secondary AND protect their QB from the cover zero blitzes they'll see. It probably won't end well.
DWest has better practice facilities, an awesome stadium, and even has heat (and AC) in the school. That should make up for the slight advantage of pulling from solely inside school district boundaries versus building a roster from anywhere in SE PA.
It should be an all-time classic, down-to-the-wire game.
It should be an all-time classic, down-to-the-wire game.
While I’ll be rooting for it to be closer, I think similar to the Parkland score. They’ll need some turnovers to stay in the game early.
You’ve been beating the same drum for a while now so I’ll dive in. Open enrollment is clearly a major advantage. But why would kids come from a 45 minutes to hour radius and pay tuition and be held to some pretty intense academic standards? Seriously? A number of them are that good that they will be recognized and play anywhere right? They most certainly will get noticed, so why bother with all the other items? Dig deeper - what is it? Seriously? Is it the ability to schedule competitive out of league games? Is it the travel to one big away game? Has the opportunity for visibility and NIL at the next level driven it? Are less or more kids playing the game? What would do it? Because I can tell you for certain that it’s much easier to play in most other if not all other places, so the question is why?
Sounds like good questions to ask Prep kids and their families. I’m sure their reasons are multifaceted.
Regardless, the reasons wouldn’t begin to justify allowing non boundary teams to play in the same playoff bracket as boundary teams. It’s ridiculous and the non boundary squads are delusional if they don’t see it.
Regardless, the reasons wouldn’t begin to justify allowing non boundary teams to play in the same playoff bracket as boundary teams. It’s ridiculous and the non boundary squads are delusional if they don’t see it.
As Roxy said, we certainly see the advantages of not having boundaries, but we also don't think that's close to the whole story.
Why is it quite different in Ohio where boundary and non-boundary schools have been playing each other in playoffs and (much more than in PA) regular season games for a long time?
I'll throw one more idea into the mix. Playing at SJP requires a greater sacrifice (from parents as well as players) than playing at just about any public school. Many have pointed out that roughly a third of the players come from Jersey--mostly from towns in Jersey at least 10 miles from the school, sometimes 30 or more miles from the school. (Some of the PA players also travel about as far each day.) Almost no Prep players come from within 5 miles of the school. What that means is that players like Sacco, Smith, and Foulke--like McCord and the Johnsons before them--each day spend about two hours travelling to and from school--or to and from practice, on days when classes aren't held. And if they don't do a fair bit of homework each school night, they won't last at the school. (I'm not saying players at other schools don't have homework to do or don't sometimes have a commute--but if they are at a boundary school it's hard to see how their commute can be more than 15 minutes and, on average, they probably have less homework than Prep players do. I also recognize that players at public schools, especially in poor areas, sometimes have significant challenges at home and in their neighborhoods.)
I've seen tapes of Roken talking to the players and reminding them about the sacrifices they've made. A sacrifice grows out of a commitment; it also strengthens that commitment. About a week ago Rover pointed out that Catholic / non-boundary schools have been doing very well in a wide range of sports within the PIAA, not just football and basketball. Maybe part of the reason is that the athletes and their families make sacrifices (of time as well as of money) so they can attend the schools they attend and participate on the schools' athletic teams. This doesn't make them better people but it does mean they are more invested in the schools and the teams. Being intentional can be very helpful.
What is different about Ohio again?
Division I has had public schools win state titles in - 2019, 2017, 2009, 2006, 2004, 2000, 1998, 1997, 1996, 1990, 1987, 1986, 1983, 1981, 1978, 1974, and 1972. So 17 of the 51 championships, and only six of the last 24. There are MORE private schools and pass the titles around, but St. Ed's, Archbishop Moeller, Bishop Elder, St. Xavier, St. Ignatius all dominate.
In smaller schols, you have Toledo Central Catholic with five titles, St. Vincent St. Mary's with seven, Cleveland Benedictine with seven, Cardinal Mooney with eight, Bishop Hoban with five (all since 2015 when they made a real commitment to football), Cincinnati LaSalle has four (all since 2014), Youngstown Ursuline has four.
Division II, there have been public school champs in 2023, 2021, 2013, 2011, 2010 - so only five in the last 14 years. Division III has had public school champs from 2017-2022, but didn't have a public school champ for ten years before that (Bishop Hoban moving up certainly helped there). There are not a lot of small private schools in Ohio (in the same way there aren't small private schools in Central PA) because almost all of the small schools are super rural and their cutoffs for Divisions (they have eight) are way smaller than ours.
There are more non-boundary powerhouses, so rather than one school winning eight of eleven, you have four different schools splitting them up (though Ed's has six since 2014) but non-boundary schools absolutely dominate Ohio high school football, and have since forever.
This year, St. Ed's and Moeller are heavy favorites in semis in D1. Archbishop Hoban is a big favorite in D2, three of the four teams in D3 are catholic schools (Ursuline, Toledo CC, and Bishop Watterson), D4 has Glenville, which is like Cleveland's Imhotep, then all of the tiny, tiny town public schools in the lower divisions.
Division I has had public schools win state titles in - 2019, 2017, 2009, 2006, 2004, 2000, 1998, 1997, 1996, 1990, 1987, 1986, 1983, 1981, 1978, 1974, and 1972. So 17 of the 51 championships, and only six of the last 24. There are MORE private schools and pass the titles around, but St. Ed's, Archbishop Moeller, Bishop Elder, St. Xavier, St. Ignatius all dominate.
In smaller schols, you have Toledo Central Catholic with five titles, St. Vincent St. Mary's with seven, Cleveland Benedictine with seven, Cardinal Mooney with eight, Bishop Hoban with five (all since 2015 when they made a real commitment to football), Cincinnati LaSalle has four (all since 2014), Youngstown Ursuline has four.
Division II, there have been public school champs in 2023, 2021, 2013, 2011, 2010 - so only five in the last 14 years. Division III has had public school champs from 2017-2022, but didn't have a public school champ for ten years before that (Bishop Hoban moving up certainly helped there). There are not a lot of small private schools in Ohio (in the same way there aren't small private schools in Central PA) because almost all of the small schools are super rural and their cutoffs for Divisions (they have eight) are way smaller than ours.
There are more non-boundary powerhouses, so rather than one school winning eight of eleven, you have four different schools splitting them up (though Ed's has six since 2014) but non-boundary schools absolutely dominate Ohio high school football, and have since forever.
This year, St. Ed's and Moeller are heavy favorites in semis in D1. Archbishop Hoban is a big favorite in D2, three of the four teams in D3 are catholic schools (Ursuline, Toledo CC, and Bishop Watterson), D4 has Glenville, which is like Cleveland's Imhotep, then all of the tiny, tiny town public schools in the lower divisions.
I don't pay as close attention as you do to Ohio high school football, but it seems that even in the days when St. Ignatius and Moeller were so good, they didn't beat the public schools by anything like the margins SJP has been beating PA public schools in most recent years. St. Ed's may be a heavy favorite this week, but they lost two or three games earlier this year to public schools--and they were up 35-7 at the half against SJP (though the final score, 35-21, was probably a better indicator of the difference between the two on that day.) Last year, as I recall, St. Ed's beat a public school team in the final by a single score--nothing like the margins SJP had in 2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, and 2023.
My basic point is that while several Catholic (non-boundary) schools have done very well in PIAA football playoffs, SJP stands out from them all. I think we can all agree to that. Part of the reason is that their location allows them to draw students (including football playing students) from all parts of the Philly area. But, as I've said, Roman is even more central, and LaSalle, Malvern, Haverford, etc. have their own advantages. And it's not as if there haven't been good public school programs during SJP's run. I will be very surprised if SJP's dominance in the PCL since 2013--2015 being the only year they didn't represent District 12 in the playoffs--continues to anything like the same degree in the next several years. We saw LaSalle close the gap substantially this year and there's no reason to think it won't be a hard-fought rivalry for the foreseeable future. No sign, either, that Roman, Malvern, Bonner, etc. won't be at least equally ambitious.
for the same reason kids choose Michigan or Alabama when they live outside of those states, when they could commit to a local school like Temple where playing time would be almost guaranteed
most of the best players or prospects want to play for the best programs that consistently compete in the biggest games
All schools should be open boundary schools.
I used to go to the eastern final almost yearly. Who in their right mind will drive out to Coatesville to see another non-competetive state playoff game? The good news is you will be back to the Victory Brewing Company by halftime.
Bonner / Southern Lehigh is at CB West. Pretty fair split in terms of driving times for that one. Coatesville is only good for Downingtown West.
Maybe this is the year that the jet-lag from the long daily commute and the drowsiness from all of the homework finally catches up to SJP?
All seriousness aside, this is about non-boundary vs boundary in a playoff structure. It’s much more than just SJP.
As a neutral observer, I check out once states hit, and I don’t think I’m in the minority.
Is Bonner going to kill Southern Lehigh? The Spartans have a nice team, and definitely benefit from being down in 4A in this cycle. Olesh (Michigan) and Steckert are good players.
I don’t think they kill them. Two good teams. Bonner has played better competition obviously so that may be their biggest advantage. They game slows down after you play SJP and LaSalle.
we already have college football for open boundaries
high school football is supposed to be one community vs another community
Catholic / private schools have been playing football for as long as public schools. And there can be communities, though not based on town or city boundaries, centered in Catholic / private schools.
You can be for separating boundary and non-boundary schools--a legitimate position--but saying what high school football is and is not supposed to be is another matter. Around the country there are schools, including many public ones, that are not based in particular geographic communities.
imo- i say keep the playoffs structure the same!
What I would like to see, is more consistent "rules and expectations" from district to district- things like transfers, recruiting, scheduling options- so like District 10, follows the "same basic rules" as District 1.
This thread has taken a different topic- public/private- so here is a very interesting one, not getting much press- Pine Richland v Bishop McDevitt tomorrow? One of the best "boundary" programs vs one of the best "non-boundary"
This is not gonna be easy, but I know the PR coaches are "embracing the challenge"
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