the regression of football at ridley
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Here we go again...another 3000 views Ridley Football thread??? I loved all the ins and outs of the Decker era as far as his wins and losses (in the "future of Ridley Football thread)..that is about 49th on the list of problems with this current regime on Morton Ave...I grew up in the area but moved out in the early 90's and having family in the area considered it a privilege to go back and watch a game or 2. I was in town this Fri pm and the word privilege is far from what I would consider as I attended the Conestoga/Ridley game....Ive heard funeral homes with more intensity....stands empty....parking lot half full....I know this is 2 sub-par .500 teams (which says it all right there) as far as the state of the Green Raiders but Holy Cow !!
I watched decades of Ridley teams that were the epitome of well coached...never beat themselves....hard-nosed scrappy squads.....I nearly choked on my hot dog watching this "3 ring circus".....there is nothing worse than watching HS kids starved for good coaching that are put in situations to fail (heartbreaking)....I wont drag on about discipline/structure/ and will to win but when your local "powder puff" of a newspaper calls into question your desire to win I would think change has to come ??
I watched decades of Ridley teams that were the epitome of well coached...never beat themselves....hard-nosed scrappy squads.....I nearly choked on my hot dog watching this "3 ring circus".....there is nothing worse than watching HS kids starved for good coaching that are put in situations to fail (heartbreaking)....I wont drag on about discipline/structure/ and will to win but when your local "powder puff" of a newspaper calls into question your desire to win I would think change has to come ??
The change has to be with the program in general, not just the current staff. The death of the program is from the youth program through high school. I believe they all had losing records or 500 at best. The 9th grade team was winless and scored less than 30 points the whole season. The administration could care less about sports in general. The girls sports programs are a joke. Field hockey losing games 10-0.
There was a coaching staff organized 2 years ago ready willing and able to take over. Not sure they would take over now nor would the administration acquiesce to their demands. They are now two years further away from fixing this , and it's a bug fix , not a patch job.
I still think the talent is there. This senior group was undefeated as 9 th graders. I know that's not always a correlation 4 years later , but this group got worse over the last 4. Years compared to the rest of the league, not better. From middle school on up there were 5 or 6 teams and the aggregate records were typically 59-5 , 57-3, where winning was expected. As I said above, I think the aggregate record this year is under 500 and the kids actually expect to lose to Haverford , garnet valley , Stoga. Etc.
There was a coaching staff organized 2 years ago ready willing and able to take over. Not sure they would take over now nor would the administration acquiesce to their demands. They are now two years further away from fixing this , and it's a bug fix , not a patch job.
I still think the talent is there. This senior group was undefeated as 9 th graders. I know that's not always a correlation 4 years later , but this group got worse over the last 4. Years compared to the rest of the league, not better. From middle school on up there were 5 or 6 teams and the aggregate records were typically 59-5 , 57-3, where winning was expected. As I said above, I think the aggregate record this year is under 500 and the kids actually expect to lose to Haverford , garnet valley , Stoga. Etc.
.......thats the real story....was told by someone fri pm that theyre some new faces in admin. that are looking at "all aspects" of the sports programs....if what was the best example of solid year after year well coached disciplined Football teams now looking as if a 65lb boys club staff is running things isn't a top priority then your right (administration doesn't care)...also.some food for thought ....what happened to the yearly stream of All Delco QB's under McNick and Waller?? I watched this poor kid Fri pm who looked to be a good athlete (I believe a D1 lax player) run right,,run left,,,,then try and hit a 30yd crossing pattern with 2 seconds to throw the ball....this is a Ridley offense ??? like was said earlier....nothing worse than watching good kids starving for good coaching....
You can't have a stream of all delco qbs unless you work at it. This coaching staff dies little or no off season work on QB or player development. There have been prior QBs that actually reached out to some of the older coaches to get some off season work in. A by product of that is some kids then feel no commitment to the program if the coaches are not 100% commuted as well. This years QB is a very good athlete and a D-1 lacrosse recruit. So his whole summer was committed to lacrosse , not football. No weight room, no 7 on 7 tournaments , no off season workouts, He just showed up in August having done no football related activity in a year. And I be,I Eve he did that because he knew he could.
......a shame....we see enough bad football in the OJR area that I know exactly what a lack of commitment yr round by a staff can do...I remember under Waller and all the way back to McNick they would take a kid with just above par talent and tweek and turn him into a versatile dual threat QB....week after week you would see him getting better and better(then again Im talking about coaches that spent 14hrs a day sitting next to a film projector) Wow I just dated myself !!
the team as a whole would improve dramatically.....the team you saw in late October looked nothing like the squad that broke camp in August. I see the same stupid mistakes and "lack of discipline" penalty's all season long now....and that is not about "oh the talent isn't there" or " oh the Middle school doesn't have enough chin straps!" that is a direct reflection of who's wearing the headsets on the sidelines(although I doubt his is plugged in)......
Oh well this has all been rehashed time and time again...lets just hope its as visible to some(that make District decisions) as it seems to be to all others.......
the team as a whole would improve dramatically.....the team you saw in late October looked nothing like the squad that broke camp in August. I see the same stupid mistakes and "lack of discipline" penalty's all season long now....and that is not about "oh the talent isn't there" or " oh the Middle school doesn't have enough chin straps!" that is a direct reflection of who's wearing the headsets on the sidelines(although I doubt his is plugged in)......
Oh well this has all been rehashed time and time again...lets just hope its as visible to some(that make District decisions) as it seems to be to all others.......
Speed,
I think there's a lot to that, especially at the QB position. Like to know how Ryan Stover at Upper Dublin has handled his summers and off-seasons. He will be playing high level D1 lax in college.
LaSalle has had a large contingent of "crossover" FB-Lax/baseball players over the years, 7x7's often were missed, don't recall at the QB position though.
Edit...
My error, it was Michael Sowers at U. Dublin I was thinking of, not the Stover boy.
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Cuckholder had a great post on this a while back, and it summarized exactly what many believe is the problem there. And that is Ridley faithful's inaccurate perception that they have been a dominant program for an eternity. He quoted stats that demonstrated that the current regime's record is pretty much in line with coaches who have came before him.
I think people aren't necessarily upset with the results, but how the results are being arrived at. No discipline, no QB development, and the head coach's lack of attention to the program due to a myriad of known personal issues far outweigh the 6-4 record.
At the same time, I think that the Ridley faithful have to realize that the program just isn't as good as it used to be, as other teams have caught up. The days of guaranteeing a top 2 central league finish and playoff birth for Ridley are just gone. The expectation level should be less than that. Even Garnet, who is the perennial favorite in the central league, finished 3rd the last two years.
I think people aren't necessarily upset with the results, but how the results are being arrived at. No discipline, no QB development, and the head coach's lack of attention to the program due to a myriad of known personal issues far outweigh the 6-4 record.
At the same time, I think that the Ridley faithful have to realize that the program just isn't as good as it used to be, as other teams have caught up. The days of guaranteeing a top 2 central league finish and playoff birth for Ridley are just gone. The expectation level should be less than that. Even Garnet, who is the perennial favorite in the central league, finished 3rd the last two years.
DEF: I think you are right in saying its how they are losing. Not all 6-4 records are created equal. For me, instead of accepting that the program isn't as good as it used to be, I want to know WHY isn't the program as good as it used to be? They are getting the same group of kids from hard working blue collar families( with a smattering of kids from low income) for years. I find it hard to believe what worked for decades will not work now. Did Gentile from UD and Gallagher ( both very loyal competent coaches) all of the sudden come up with some master plan to beat Ridley like a drum the past few years after 20+ years of coaching? At its core football is still just a game of blocking, tackling, discipline and hard work and if you do that better than the other team, you will win. For years, Ridley did that better than the other team and won. Not because they had so much more talent than the other teams.
I think you start down a slippery slope once expectations are lowered. If the expectation is that 7-3 is OK and you finish 6-4-so whats the big deal. Then 7-3 becomes the bar instead of 10-0. 3rd place in the league becomes the bar, not the league champion. In a few more years the bar will then be .500 and finish in the top half of the league and on and on. I used to think that any time ridley lost a league game ( except maybe to Shaven during their glory years) it was an upset. And im smart enough to know that in sports, upsets happen and youre not going to go 10-0 every year. But now Haverford or UD over Ridley is no longer an upset and I do no think most of the older generation of Ridley fans and ex players is ready to accept that.
I think you start down a slippery slope once expectations are lowered. If the expectation is that 7-3 is OK and you finish 6-4-so whats the big deal. Then 7-3 becomes the bar instead of 10-0. 3rd place in the league becomes the bar, not the league champion. In a few more years the bar will then be .500 and finish in the top half of the league and on and on. I used to think that any time ridley lost a league game ( except maybe to Shaven during their glory years) it was an upset. And im smart enough to know that in sports, upsets happen and youre not going to go 10-0 every year. But now Haverford or UD over Ridley is no longer an upset and I do no think most of the older generation of Ridley fans and ex players is ready to accept that.
Cuck's original post was a little misleading with the all time stats. I think the perception that the program hasn't been successful for its entirety, and the current regime is right inline with past seasons is a little misconstrued.
The program's all time record is 664-173-23 for a 78.6 winning percentage over 82 seasons. That works out to an average yearly record of roughly 8-2. (40 of those 82 seasons ended with 0 or 1 loss)
While the current regime's 75.9% is pretty close percentage-wise, there is definitely a downward trend. Before 2013 the program had lost 5+ games in a season just 7 times in 82 years, and hadn't done it since 1956. With Interboro looming on Thanksgiving, they are inline to lose 5 games twice in a three year span. Add all that to the fact that recent teams have been undisciplined, and pretty much quit on the field last week vs. Conestoga; and you can see why people are expecting a change. I don't think it behooves anyone involved to start accepting current trends as the new norm.
It is certainly trending down. While this regime has a wining percentage of close to 76%, it is heavily concentrated in high win totals the first three years which were kids brought into the program and molded by Waller. Those early years were also defensive forces with Batty as the D coordinator. Without Wallers influence on offense and Battys on defense, the record is mediocre by Ridley standards. This year the team gave up over 20 points 7 times , which is the most ever in 82 years. With two more games to go, that number could potentially hit 9. Clearly not Ridley football
I guess only Batty knows why he left. There are rumors aplenty. But he also started coaching at Ridley in 1977 , so there's a chance it was just time for him to go. He was also rumored to be part of the old head crew willing to come back a few years ago.
This really isn't all that hard to figure out. For years the bulk of the central league was terrible. Ridley was one place where there was a very good youth system in place. If you grew up in Ridley and played football you went to Ridley.
The rest of the central had nothing from a youth program perspective and the bulk of the youth football was played at cyo level in areas that were highly catholic in concentration. If you played cyo football and went to a central league program it was because you likely weren't good enough to play in the catholic league. Started to change in mid 90s when catholic school got expensive.
No accident that these central league teams are way better at the same time that the oharas, Carroll's, bonners are worse. Prep and interac raid cyo for the very best players but in delco that tends to mean lineman because the net is wide for skill kids with better speed and size than you can get in delco. The good skill kids and non monster lineman are ending up at haverford, marple, Springfield, garnet, radnor, stoga. Throw in better job with youth programs and school programs this isn't hard to fathom.
Take haverford for example. It's a big district. Has a youth program. Has annunciation, st. Denis, sacred heart/st Bernie's, st. Dots, st. Pius all with active cyo programs with township kids in those programs. Ridley is down to Fatima and gabes. Haverford, Springfield, marple littered with cyo kids they would not have got 10 years ago. League has changed dramatically. Coaching is better and league getting more players than ever before while Ridley getting the same guys they always got. Ridley still a good program but the days of winning or being a top three in central by birthright are over. It's about players. The players you got and the players you have to play against. The players Ridley have to play against are way better than in their dominant days.
The rest of the central had nothing from a youth program perspective and the bulk of the youth football was played at cyo level in areas that were highly catholic in concentration. If you played cyo football and went to a central league program it was because you likely weren't good enough to play in the catholic league. Started to change in mid 90s when catholic school got expensive.
No accident that these central league teams are way better at the same time that the oharas, Carroll's, bonners are worse. Prep and interac raid cyo for the very best players but in delco that tends to mean lineman because the net is wide for skill kids with better speed and size than you can get in delco. The good skill kids and non monster lineman are ending up at haverford, marple, Springfield, garnet, radnor, stoga. Throw in better job with youth programs and school programs this isn't hard to fathom.
Take haverford for example. It's a big district. Has a youth program. Has annunciation, st. Denis, sacred heart/st Bernie's, st. Dots, st. Pius all with active cyo programs with township kids in those programs. Ridley is down to Fatima and gabes. Haverford, Springfield, marple littered with cyo kids they would not have got 10 years ago. League has changed dramatically. Coaching is better and league getting more players than ever before while Ridley getting the same guys they always got. Ridley still a good program but the days of winning or being a top three in central by birthright are over. It's about players. The players you got and the players you have to play against. The players Ridley have to play against are way better than in their dominant days.
After reading the Delco Times article about the Conestoga game where Ridley was described as "listless" and basically quit half way thru the game, I have to question why you agree to this game.
If Pennridge and Interboro result in losses as most are expecting, Ridley would finish the season 6-6; their first .500 record since 1956 and the 6 losses would be the most since 1953 (when they finished 2-8).
Jk. The wheels for this game were put in motion after the Haverford loss. I'm. Not sure they could get out of it after the Conestogs debacle. I'm not sure who is really behind scheduling the game , but the kids don't want to play and the coaches don't want to coach. It's time to put everyone out of their misery , not inflict more.
Hard to see this happening to Ridley. As a Springfield guy I hated Ridley growing up. I think we tied them in 1972 and beat them 1989 & 1994.Every other game belonged to Ridley.
However as time passed I gained loads of respect for the Green Raiders and became a fan of theirs except for the Cougar game of course.
Would love to see the program rebound soon.
However as time passed I gained loads of respect for the Green Raiders and became a fan of theirs except for the Cougar game of course.
Would love to see the program rebound soon.
...It sure is good to see that there's nothing like a Ridley Football thread to start a firestorm with the amount of views they get !! Must mean there is still alot of caring and pride in what goes on with the program from the alumni/parents/and just plain outsiders interested in whats happened to the program...I had stated before.... that we can only hope what is so obvious to "John Q Fan" standing on the fence is also plainly obvious to District and Administration people on Morton Ave.
I heard a rumor from two different sources. Can anyone confirm that the Monday of the Conestoga game, the coaches (including the HFC) didn't show up for the normal Monday meeting until after 4:30 and no one notified the players they would be late, so a majority of the players left?
Again, I am not normally one to further rumors but I heard this from one source then asked another source unrelated to the first one and he heard the same thing.
Again, I am not normally one to further rumors but I heard this from one source then asked another source unrelated to the first one and he heard the same thing.
The fact that this is even a believable rumor is all you need to know about the state of the program.
....as this was a reunion weekend it put alot more alumni out and about ..and yes the chatter mill was a chattering......sad thing is they aren't rumors gang....and as if each story likes to trump the next.....a certain someone ended up in a shoving match with a parent at a local watering hole !! as was stated above...the fact that these situations are being discussed kind of makes the threads discussing how many 5'7" kids play CYO or how many left handed public school kids (gee wiz) just counldnt crack the rough tough Catholic league look kind of foolish now ehhh?
From a distance it seems Ridley had their long day in the sun and now that train left the station. Any team that has not been .500 since 1956 was due for a fall. Afraid Ridley will never see anywhere near that kind of dominance again, not even close. Probably from here on they are just another team who may or not be good.
Sorry, I tried to stay away, but i get pulled right back in (use Marlon Brando voice). You are right about Monday, but wrong because it was a complete no-show by the HC. U feel bad for the kids. I dont know who said it earlier, but they are definitely starving to be coached. Whoever scheduled this game for Friday (home vs Pennridge), surely didnt have the kids best interest at heart. Anyone with half a brain can see this team has reached its limits. Regarding the so-called shoving match (more screaming) at the local watering hole saturday nite, that was with a parent of a current player on the team. The parent was forced to leave, and he did absolutely nothing. Also have heard there is a video of the incident, and its not pretty (another black eye for the school). Regardless whats happening on the football field, this is an absolute disgrace off the field. No matter what happens, win or lose, these kids deserve better. HS coaches are supposed to be role models, and leaders for HS kids. I am seeing neither one
It appears the HC will NOT be on the sidelines tonite vs Pennridge. Not sure if its a "one game" suspension or disciplinary thing or long tern his tenure is officially over but it looks like they are going to go day to day here.
Man, that's huge news Speed and a real shame. Things could get ugly tonight at Phil Marion for the Green Raiders.
They scheduled a game because otherwise the kids are just sitting around for two and a half weeks until thanksgiving. Any team would rather play a game than just sit around practicing without an opponent for that long, but now I don't know. Usually the playoffs would occupy at least one game/week. I agree that its a mess now.
The point is that the kids should not be sitting around for 2 1/2 weeks, they should be practicing. You get what amounts to 12 extra practices without having to worry about a game, travel, walk throughs, etc. And its not just about practicing for one game on Thanksgiving, its about getting kids ready for next year-especially the juniors and sophomores. You can talk to any college coach and ask them what is one of the biggest benefits of making a bowl game and they will tell you its an extra month of practice, where you get to see everyone in a controlled environment compete on a daily basis uninterrupted by a game or game schedule. If you want to give the kids some time to rest or heal those that are banged up, that's fine. But your not going to see these kids in pads again until NEXT August, you have a gift of 2 more weeks or practice and you should take advantage of it.
OJRWREST Vince Lombardi could come back and coach Ridley. That still doesn't change the fact that the rest of the Central is keeping more players home than ever before and it's a way better level of talent than the Ridley glory days. And believe it or not the whole reason for it is actually the state of catholic schools and the catholic league.
Prep,wood, and inter ac are becoming super powers that only very best can get on the field for currently. O'Hara, Bonner, Carroll play for right to get smashed by Wood right now. Kids just below Prep and interac level are choosing public school to compete for something like a central league title. CYO kids leading the way at Springfield last year and Haverford this year that never would have played there as recent as 10 years ago.
Ridley is an unbelievable program with great history, tremendously tough kids, great community caring and a legacy of fantastic coaching. They can and will win big again. However 85% of the time better players win. The caliber of players in their league at Haverford, Upper Darby, Garnet Valley, Springfield, Marple, Radnor, Conestoga consistently higher than at any other time in their history. Central a better league now than maybe it's been in 35 years. To pin all this on coaching and not changing landscape, demographics, etc is foolhardy in my humble opinion. The current talent is what it is.
Prep,wood, and inter ac are becoming super powers that only very best can get on the field for currently. O'Hara, Bonner, Carroll play for right to get smashed by Wood right now. Kids just below Prep and interac level are choosing public school to compete for something like a central league title. CYO kids leading the way at Springfield last year and Haverford this year that never would have played there as recent as 10 years ago.
Ridley is an unbelievable program with great history, tremendously tough kids, great community caring and a legacy of fantastic coaching. They can and will win big again. However 85% of the time better players win. The caliber of players in their league at Haverford, Upper Darby, Garnet Valley, Springfield, Marple, Radnor, Conestoga consistently higher than at any other time in their history. Central a better league now than maybe it's been in 35 years. To pin all this on coaching and not changing landscape, demographics, etc is foolhardy in my humble opinion. The current talent is what it is.
What's up Gang? I haven't seen you at the field while dropping the boys off recently. Are you still there?
Very astute observation on the state of the Central League. Not only are many of the CYO kids foregoing secondary Catholic education due to ever increasing tuition, but success is attractive. The recent successes of the Haverford's, Garnet, Stoga, and Upper Darby's have had an exponential effect when it comes to keeping township kids in their district public schools. Success breeds success. I don't think many people realize that at one time, only 58% of Haverford's kids came to the public school. It's nice to see a bunch of the homegrown talent choosing the public option. I have no beef with the Catholic schools at all. But it was hard to watch so many good kids grow up in town but wear something other than Fords Crimson jerseys on the weekend.
Good luck to all the tourney teams tonight, and especially my Fords at home against Perk Valley
Very astute observation on the state of the Central League. Not only are many of the CYO kids foregoing secondary Catholic education due to ever increasing tuition, but success is attractive. The recent successes of the Haverford's, Garnet, Stoga, and Upper Darby's have had an exponential effect when it comes to keeping township kids in their district public schools. Success breeds success. I don't think many people realize that at one time, only 58% of Haverford's kids came to the public school. It's nice to see a bunch of the homegrown talent choosing the public option. I have no beef with the Catholic schools at all. But it was hard to watch so many good kids grow up in town but wear something other than Fords Crimson jerseys on the weekend.
Good luck to all the tourney teams tonight, and especially my Fords at home against Perk Valley
Speed the difference is college kids typically don't have a choice if they want to keep their money. Keeping kids out for 2.5 weeks for something that means a lot more to the 60 year olds than them is brutal. Especially with seniors. Us old school guys want these kids to care about this us much as we do/did but world is a different place. If my high school coach came out and coached today like he did then there would be 22 kids on the team by week three. Not saying that's a positive development but it's a development none the less.
I know everyone keeps referencing this group of older coaches waiting in the wings to return Ridley to Ridley. Think a lot of them wil be suprised how much this has changed in a short period of time. Tough gig these days especially for older guys.
I know everyone keeps referencing this group of older coaches waiting in the wings to return Ridley to Ridley. Think a lot of them wil be suprised how much this has changed in a short period of time. Tough gig these days especially for older guys.
Lift I'm still there. Every night but Monday. We are wrapping up tonight at 6:45 so we can catch the game at 7. Be great for these guys to win a playoff game. More help likely on the way. Lots of big line kids in this class throughout all the programs in the district footprint. Keep some those to go with the freshmen skill kids think future is pretty bright.
GG:
Im not sure the league is a better league now. It may be more balanced, but that does not make it better. Unless someone makes an extended run at district titles like ridley or strath haven, the league to me is not better.
And Ridley as been winniing games forever even before there was a central league. You make it sound like they won all those games for all those years simply because they had more talent than everyone else, and they just show uo every Friday or Saturday and win. That kind of diminishes that hard work from all of the previous coaches and kids over the years that went in to building the program to what it is today.
One thing that you said that may be true is the perhaps the current regime thinks( thought) the same way you did and that they didn't have to work that hard or scout that hard or prep that hard since they too thought they were better than everyone-when clearly they are not.
Im not sure the league is a better league now. It may be more balanced, but that does not make it better. Unless someone makes an extended run at district titles like ridley or strath haven, the league to me is not better.
And Ridley as been winniing games forever even before there was a central league. You make it sound like they won all those games for all those years simply because they had more talent than everyone else, and they just show uo every Friday or Saturday and win. That kind of diminishes that hard work from all of the previous coaches and kids over the years that went in to building the program to what it is today.
One thing that you said that may be true is the perhaps the current regime thinks( thought) the same way you did and that they didn't have to work that hard or scout that hard or prep that hard since they too thought they were better than everyone-when clearly they are not.
Speed you make good points. No doubt for years talent wise Ridley was better than the rest of central and realistically before Clancy at strath haven no other central program was ever consistently good. The league stunk. Ridley was good enough to play with anyone and not their fault league stunk.
Other thing is they had great tradition and coaching ahead of it's time. Ridley threw the ball successfully long before anyone else. In fact they had great success under Waller in this century in beating these bucks county powerhouses in state playoffs who could have played football with a rugby ball and reacted to a forward pass on defense like a grenade was in the air. So there were times where Ridley won games on tradition and scheme.
Teams all throw effectively now. Top teams in central may not be as good as during Ridley and haven glory days but the league has more talent overall than ever and less gimmes. Ridley losing players to the uber powers and other privates like everyone else. Landscape different. Love Ridley program and how much Ridley people take pride in it. When a freshman team doesn't win a game I think it's hard to say the entire problem is the coaches in the Ridley program. Coaching overall in hs way better today. Days of Mcnick pounding some overmatched gym teacher at insert central league school name here looking for an extra eight grand are over. Ridley and the way they ran their program and how progressive they were coaching were ahead of their time.
Other thing is they had great tradition and coaching ahead of it's time. Ridley threw the ball successfully long before anyone else. In fact they had great success under Waller in this century in beating these bucks county powerhouses in state playoffs who could have played football with a rugby ball and reacted to a forward pass on defense like a grenade was in the air. So there were times where Ridley won games on tradition and scheme.
Teams all throw effectively now. Top teams in central may not be as good as during Ridley and haven glory days but the league has more talent overall than ever and less gimmes. Ridley losing players to the uber powers and other privates like everyone else. Landscape different. Love Ridley program and how much Ridley people take pride in it. When a freshman team doesn't win a game I think it's hard to say the entire problem is the coaches in the Ridley program. Coaching overall in hs way better today. Days of Mcnick pounding some overmatched gym teacher at insert central league school name here looking for an extra eight grand are over. Ridley and the way they ran their program and how progressive they were coaching were ahead of their time.