What happened to Roman???

[socalfan33]

0-8
Avg score = 32 - 11
Combined score vs PCL + Malvern = 168 - 51

Is this a one season aberration or the beginning of a more permanent deterioration of their program? They've been well below LaSalle and SJP recently but seeing them get thumped by West Catholic, Ryan, Malvern and Judge seems a bit shocking.

 

[Roxy427]

Here's my 2 cents on the Catholic League as a whole... And it's not a positive one.

It's 2 fold:

The current state of the Archdiocese of Philadelphia at all levels is so fragile that it's going to be almost impossible for schools like Roman, Judge, Ryan, Neumann to field a football team that can be competitive consistently on a year to year basis. Roman and Neumann are going through it now. Judge has been going through it for a couple years. Ryan is on a slow upswing but that's just because they only had one way to go and that was up.

CYO programs in the city are at an all time low on numbers. Take for example Romans biggest feeder program IHM. They had 9 players on their 7-8th grade team until they picked up a few players from a folded pound ball team. Now they have a whopping 13. The powers to be at Roman do not put an emphasis on the football program. It's a school that is more concerned about surviving. Nothing wrong with that. As long as they can get 2-3 players in every year for the basketball team, the alumni is happy.

Secondly, Look at how well the Inter-Ac has improved over the past few years. The Inter-Ac is flooded with kids who's fathers were Catholic Leaguers. That mentality of Tradition is no longer a priority. It's what's best for your kid.

It's either Prep or Wood if your kid wants to play football in the CL. They are the "haves". Lasalle has thrived over the years on the Lacrosse/football dynamic player but that is only going to last for so long in my opinion. The rest of the catholic league are the "have nots"

I think the Catholic League as a whole from a football perspective is on the decline. Just my thoughts on the outside looking in

 

[tulla]

Here's my 2 cents on the Catholic League as a whole... And it's not a positive one.

It's 2 fold:

The current state of the Archdiocese of Philadelphia at all levels is so fragile that it's going to be almost impossible for schools like Roman, Judge, Ryan, Neumann to field a football team that can be competitive consistently on a year to year basis. Roman and Neumann are going through it now. Judge has been going through it for a couple years. Ryan is on a slow upswing but that's just because they only had one way to go and that was up.

CYO programs in the city are at an all time low on numbers. Take for example Romans biggest feeder program IHM. They had 9 players on their 7-8th grade team until they picked up a few players from a folded pound ball team. Now they have a whopping 13. The powers to be at Roman do not put an emphasis on the football program. It's a school that is more concerned about surviving. Nothing wrong with that. As long as they can get 2-3 players in every year for the basketball team, the alumni is happy.

Secondly, Look at how well the Inter-Ac has improved over the past few years. The Inter-Ac is flooded with kids who's fathers were Catholic Leaguers. That mentality of Tradition is no longer a priority. It's what's best for your kid.

It's either Prep or Wood if your kid wants to play football in the CL. They are the "haves". Lasalle has thrived over the years on the Lacrosse/football dynamic player but that is only going to last for so long in my opinion. The rest of the catholic league are the "have nots"

I think the Catholic League as a whole from a football perspective is on the decline. Just my thoughts on the outside looking in

Both your points make a lot of sense.

I don't get to Philly very often these days, but a couple of years ago I drove through Mayfair on the way to a game at Northeast and compared what I saw then to what I knew from the late 60's and 70's when St. Matthew's had such a large (800 kids or more?) school. Whether you call it Catholic Philly or the Archdiocese, it has withered--for a whole bunch of reasons.

But about football: I'd be interested to know how many kids are playing it before they reach high school age and what their demographic characteristics are--not just race but neighborhood, family income level, etc. I suspect that several factors, certainly including worries about potential brain injuries, are reducing the number of kids from middle class families playing the game. Lots of kids, e.g. myself and several of my teammates at SJP, also used to have their first experience of playing organized football in high school. That's probably a lot less common these days.

Finally, your comment about the InterAC made me think of the quality of football in public schools, city and suburban. It would seem that it's generally declining with the overall pool getting smaller and the concentration of kids who are (correctly or incorrectly) focused on football looking to a relative handful of PCL and InterAC schools--and those schools looking at them.

 

[lilromeo]

Here's my 2 cents on the Catholic League as a whole... And it's not a positive one.

It's 2 fold:

The current state of the Archdiocese of Philadelphia at all levels is so fragile that it's going to be almost impossible for schools like Roman, Judge, Ryan, Neumann to field a football team that can be competitive consistently on a year to year basis. Roman and Neumann are going through it now. Judge has been going through it for a couple years. Ryan is on a slow upswing but that's just because they only had one way to go and that was up.

CYO programs in the city are at an all time low on numbers. Take for example Romans biggest feeder program IHM. They had 9 players on their 7-8th grade team until they picked up a few players from a folded pound ball team. Now they have a whopping 13. The powers to be at Roman do not put an emphasis on the football program. It's a school that is more concerned about surviving. Nothing wrong with that. As long as they can get 2-3 players in every year for the basketball team, the alumni is happy.

Secondly, Look at how well the Inter-Ac has improved over the past few years. The Inter-Ac is flooded with kids who's fathers were Catholic Leaguers. That mentality of Tradition is no longer a priority. It's what's best for your kid.

It's either Prep or Wood if your kid wants to play football in the CL. They are the "haves". Lasalle has thrived over the years on the Lacrosse/football dynamic player but that is only going to last for so long in my opinion. The rest of the catholic league are the "have nots"

I think the Catholic League as a whole from a football perspective is on the decline. Just my thoughts on the outside looking in

A really well put perspective , particularly as it pertains to the Inter Ac influence and the Wood/ Prep football piece.I wish it would be different ,but it is what it is .

 

[SPEED&JUMP DR.]

I think what open enrollment giveth, open enrollment also taketh away. The old parish feeder system in northeast philly, center city and Delaware county was the lifeline for schools like Ryan , judge , roman and Ohara. And those schools all had extended periods of success in football throughout the years. Open enrollment took that away. The fact that there may be less kids as well only heightens the problem. So it's no longer a given that a kid from Mayfair is going to judge or a kid from Springfield is going to Ohara. The kids have options now and it's hurting those traditional feeder school programs.

 

[tulla]

A really well put perspective , particularly as it pertains to the Inter Ac influence and the Wood/ Prep football piece.I wish it would be different ,but it is what it is .

One other thing that applies to the big picture. Decades ago schools had football teams and not programs. The team began practice in mid-August and then dissolved at Thanksgiving. The coaches told us "to keep in shape" and then disappeared. When I was at the Prep two of our best football players were also starters on the basketball team--both teams were good but not great--and over at Bonner John Cappelletti, future Heisman winner at PSU, also started on their basketball team. (Try to imagine D'Andre Swift or any other elite football player doing that now.) Weight training was very basic and happened in our basements. Only a handful of guys were over 200 lbs.

I realize other schools may have had something that more resembles today's programs and changes have been happening gradually over the decades, but it seems obvious that the gap between the programs schools with very strong teams now have--and have to have if they are going to be competitive with other very strong teams--and the programs that other schools have is wide and getting wider.

 

[lilromeo]

I think what open enrollment giveth, open enrollment also taketh away. The old parish feeder system in northeast philly, center city and Delaware county was the lifeline for schools like Ryan , judge , roman and Ohara. And those schools all had extended periods of success in football throughout the years. Open enrollment took that away. The fact that there may be less kids as well only heightens the problem. So it's no longer a given that a kid from Mayfair is going to judge or a kid from Springfield is going to Ohara. The kids have options now and it's hurting those traditional feeder school programs.

You are obviously correct . Back when...most Catholic kids attended catholic schools and even the smallest Catholic High Schools had 70 -80 students playing football and could field very respectable teams. There was no need for open enrollment and yes it is hurting many other catholic schools in the PCL. I recall many times reading about a star of a game living in my old schools area ,but attending the PCL school 10 miles down the road. At this point I don't see a resolution ,due to the declining Catholic School enrollments . I wish a solution was imminent ,but I definitely don't see one forthcoming any time soon.

 

[Stalker]

It sounds like you guys are saying...or inferring this is the beginning of the end of the Catholic League. Is that a good take on these views?

 

[Roxy427]

I'm saying the overall top to bottom competitiveness in the catholic league is over. They will still produce great teams and great players. But the days of parity in the PCL is over

 

[tulla]

It sounds like you guys are saying...or inferring this is the beginning of the end of the Catholic League. Is that a good take on these views?

You have to distinguish among three things, though they are all closely related: 1) the number and health of the schools, 2) the health of the PCL as a multi-sport league, and 3) the health of the PCL with respect to football.

Re #1: As I understand it, there will be no closings for at least a couple of years, but unless there is a reversal in long-established trends, (e.g. more Catholics begin deciding to send their kids to Catholic schools) it is hard to imagine there not being 4-5 fewer schools in five to eight years. If that happens, there could be some mitigation by bringing in Shanahan and persuading Malvern to join but you're still looking at a shrinking league.

Re #2: The league works well for basketball, soccer, and baseball and OK for some of the other sports--probably better for most other sports than for football. In a few sports (e.g. swimming, rowing, golf) many schools don't compete and there is a very large gap between top and bottom.

Re #3: Looked at objectively, there's been a big decline in the quality of the league as a league in the last 20 years. Back in the old north/south days several teams in each division began the season thinking they had a good shot at a title. Even in the first years of Red/Blue most teams seemed to have a shot at least at a title game. In the Red, Roman won in '99, O'Hara in 2000 and the Prep played Bonner, Roman, and O'Hara in championships between '01 and '03. LaSalle won in '06 and Roman in '07. But aside from the two years after Brooks left, it's been all LaSalle or SJP since then and does anyone really think that's likely to change in the next few years? Wood has been even more dominant in 3A and--with the exception of last year--WC has been dominant in 2A.

My sense--and i'd be happy to be corrected--is that in going from two divisions to three and in seeing the gap between the best team(s) in a division and the rest of the teams widen, there is less of a sense that everyone is in the same league--as there certainly used to be and as is still largely true for some of the other sports. I would be in favor of everyone playing at least one team outside their classification to make for at least four regular season league games, but I'm not sure everyone would buy that--another sign that PCL identity and solidarity are waning.

Too long a response, I know.

 

[ChesmontLeague1]

With Sister McDermott from Shanahan now stepping in as head of Phila Archdiocese High Schools it wouldn't be far fetched for Shanahan being strongly persuaded to move to the PCL. The freshman class is over 350 and soph class is over 330 (yes.. School is growing again) and they have over 100 out for football. I'd personally like to see it if we are targeting to play St Joes Prep, LaSalle and Roman weekly. Obviously Shanahan doesn't belong on the same field yet but I think is moving in that direction.

 

[exr001]

Just a thought, but the advent of charter schools may also be playing a part in this decline. Many parents sent their kids to Catholic schools for the safety factor that they provided. Charter schools tend to be safer than regular public schools and without the additional expense of the Catholic schools.

 

[CYOBALL1]

The problem with two 4A PCL schools outside of Prep and LaSalle is recruiting.
The two big teams in the PCL 4A, Wood in the 3A and West in the 2A all have 1 thing in common outside of success, they recruit well.
If you're Roman Catholic you have to recruit. I believe that Roman CAN recruit on the same level as LaSalle , Wood and Prep.
Roman's current issue is that 5 years ago they brought in a very good group of players(last years senior class). After that class they did not recruit much at all.They didn't put talent around those players and that is the main reason why RC is in the position they are in.
Roman can recruit in NJ, Philadelphia and the suburbs surrounding the city.
If Roman continues on this same path, its on Roman not the landscape of the "new" PCL or PIAA.
My guess is things are going to change a bit over the next couple of years.

 

[Roxy427]

Recruiting is one thing. Recruiting to give scholarships is another.
Parents want to know the final number that's coming out of their pockets. Every parent thinks their kid is worth a free scholarship.
Romans previous staff was scolded for having their own fundraising account by the administration.

 

[golden2]

Chesmont,

What would be the benefit to Shanahan if they joined the PCL? They currently play in a tough division with many rival schools within 5 miles of there campus. Seems like a perfect fit to me.

 

[SPEED&JUMP DR.]

Any idea how the PCL will schedule next year with the PIAA going to 6 classes, especially when it comes to championships? I think as presently constituted, the 4A teams will only be Ryan and Wood. The other divisions will be watered down as well. If District 12-both PCL+PUB still insist on crowning their own champion, the regular season becomes even less meaningful, and the playoff teams even more predictable.

 

[Stalker]

You have to distinguish among three things, though they are all closely related: 1) the number and health of the schools, 2) the health of the PCL as a multi-sport league, and 3) the health of the PCL with respect to football.

Re #1: As I understand it, there will be no closings for at least a couple of years, but unless there is a reversal in long-established trends, (e.g. more Catholics begin deciding to send their kids to Catholic schools) it is hard to imagine there not being 4-5 fewer schools in five to eight years. If that happens, there could be some mitigation by bringing in Shanahan and persuading Malvern to join but you're still looking at a shrinking league.

Re #2: The league works well for basketball, soccer, and baseball and OK for some of the other sports--probably better for most other sports than for football. In a few sports (e.g. swimming, rowing, golf) many schools don't compete and there is a very large gap between top and bottom.

Re #3: Looked at objectively, there's been a big decline in the quality of the league as a league in the last 20 years. Back in the old north/south days several teams in each division began the season thinking they had a good shot at a title. Even in the first years of Red/Blue most teams seemed to have a shot at least at a title game. In the Red, Roman won in '99, O'Hara in 2000 and the Prep played Bonner, Roman, and O'Hara in championships between '01 and '03. LaSalle won in '06 and Roman in '07. But aside from the two years after Brooks left, it's been all LaSalle or SJP since then and does anyone really think that's likely to change in the next few years? Wood has been even more dominant in 3A and--with the exception of last year--WC has been dominant in 2A.

My sense--and i'd be happy to be corrected--is that in going from two divisions to three and in seeing the gap between the best team(s) in a division and the rest of the teams widen, there is less of a sense that everyone is in the same league--as there certainly used to be and as is still largely true for some of the other sports. I would be in favor of everyone playing at least one team outside their classification to make for at least four regular season league games, but I'm not sure everyone would buy that--another sign that PCL identity and solidarity are waning.

Too long a response, I know.

Thank you.

 

[00shoe]

This has been discussed in years past on this board. I stand by what i said a couple of years ago. The PCL will not exist by 2020 and the schools that are still open will play in the local 2A or 3A public leagues or if you are the prep,Lasalle, either road warriors or in the inter-ac league. Wood will be an independent. Now tell me I am wrong.

 

[ChesmontLeague1]

Golden2 - Just speculating if the Catholic League loses more schools due to closure. I haven't heard anything but PCL could reach to schools such as Shanahan and Pope John Paul 2

 

[D1football22]

Golden2 - Just speculating if the Catholic League loses more schools due to closure. I haven't heard anything but PCL could reach to schools such as Shanahan and Pope John Paul 2

The difference is that Shanahan has become respectable in Football. I don't know if you can say the same for PJP2. They struggle in the PAC even against the weaker schools.