USATODAY Regional Ranking update

[green_beans]

Prep has moved up from #6 last week to #2 and NP from #10 to #8..we need to get a couple more PA schools in here..as a side note DaMatha is also ranked #4 in the country

1. DeMatha, Hyattsville, Md. (4-0)
2. St. Joseph’s Prep, Philadelphia (3-0)
3. St. John’s College, Washington, D.C. (3-1)
4. Westfield, Chantilly, Va. (3-0)
5. Good Counsel, Olney, Md. (3-0)
6. St. Peter’s Prep, Jersey City, N.J. (2-0)
7. Bergen Catholic, Oradell, N.J. (3-0)
8. North Penn, Lansdale, Pa. (4-0)
9. Duxbury, Mass. (2-0)
10. Victor, N.Y. (3-0)

 

[exr001]

If Imhotep wasn't held back by it's schedule they would be on this list. I doubt North Penn would beat them.

 

[coverandmove1]

Let's compare apples to apples. You could coach the talent imhotep gets and beat north Penn. Not a huge accomplishment.

 

[Fletchster1]

Philly All-star team versus a Public school in the suburbs.

 

[exr001]

Here comes the whiners and excuse makers. Hmm, didn't I hear about NP taking transfers somewhere?

I'm sure that's just what BYU was thinking when they went and offered four kids from the school this week.

 

[green_beans]

exr001...are we going to talk facts or fiction.. you can't compare what goes on between the two schools and their respective football programs...

I promised myself I was done this conversion weeks ago.. if I mention it again.. please someone give me a virtual smack in the back of the head..

we are getting into the meat of the season and there are a lot of great stories about teams I knew very little about prior to a few weeks ago.. and a couple of local teams getting national attention.. a local RB setting records at ND... this is all good for PA football...if your team isn't getting the recognition you think they deserve write to USATODAY or maxpreps and complain..

 

[coverandmove1]

This debate will continue ad infinitum until all schools with open enrollment/ borders etc play within their own respective classification / league, separate from public league schools, who should continue their classification based on male enrollment. Determine an open enrollment state champion and a public school state champion and hell maybe after that the 2 respective state champions play each other for bragging rights. The way it's going now hs football has become AAU hoops.

 

[ChesmontLeague1]

This debate will continue ad infinitum until all schools with open enrollment/ borders etc play within their own respective classification / league, separate from public league schools, who should continue their classification based on male enrollment. Determine an open enrollment state champion and a public school state champion and hell maybe after that the 2 respective state champions play each other for bragging rights. The way it's going now hs football has become AAU hoops.

Having separate public and private school classifications would not resolve the football transfer issue. Some choose to put blinders on when it comes to public schools accepting football players from other schools. Institute rules that cover both open enrollment and football transfers which are the main issues to this problem.

 

[green_beans]

I'll agree with both of you.. I'm still stuck on "ad infinitum" knew I should have paid more attention in Latin class..

 

[exr001]

This debate will continue ad infinitum until all schools with open enrollment/ borders etc play within their own respective classification / league, separate from public league schools, who should continue their classification based on male enrollment. Determine an open enrollment state champion and a public school state champion and hell maybe after that the 2 respective state champions play each other for bragging rights. The way it's going now hs football has become AAU hoops.

Then you would need to remove all of District 12 from the PIAA since the majority of the schools within the district are open enrollment.

 

[ChesmontLeague1]

Then you would need to remove all of District 12 from the PIAA since the majority of the schools within the district are open enrollment.

District 12 I believe is Public and PCL? If you are saying the public schools are open enrollment too I think It's fine when it's for academic reasons but enact strict rules governing sports. I would say proven guilty until found innocent. If you can't prove academia then sit out a year. This goes for North Penn, Coatesville, Ridely, any Catholic/Private institutions, etc. THAT would slow down the public school transfer excuse, open enrollment and all the other loopholes.

 

[00shoe]

Open enrollment for district one public schools is out of the question. If there was open enrollment, schools would have to take all students, not just those for sports and top academic schools would be overflowing with applicants. In district 12 few care about schools. Open enrollment outside district 12 is out of the question.

 

[tulla]

Open enrollment for district one public schools is out of the question. If there was open enrollment, schools would have to take all students, not just those for sports and top academic schools would be overflowing with applicants. In district 12 few care about schools. Open enrollment outside district 12 is out of the question.

Open enrollment for district one public schools is out of the question. If there was open enrollment, schools would have to take all students, not just those for sports and top academic schools would be overflowing with applicants. In district 12 few care about schools. Open enrollment outside district 12 is out of the question.

Part of what you're getting at is the difference between an urban setting and a suburban setting. Open enrollment is pretty much a necessity in urban districts (given the different needs of students and the fact that you have students living within an easy commute for lots of schools with special areas of emphasis, whether that area is science, skilled trades, or the arts. And Catholic schools need open enrollment just to survive ever since demographic and cultural changes brought an end to the old system of large Catholic elementary schools that could feed particular high schools). The fact that open enrollment provides advantages to some schools when it comes to sports is a kind of extra, but it's never been what's driven open enrollment in urban high schools or in Catholic schools. As for District 1, I suspect a more open enrollment policy is coming down the pike as more and more parents, for a variety of reasons, insist upon having more choices.

 

[South Ave Sam]

Shoe,first off - open enrollment does exist, anyone can choose whatever school they or their parents want to attend. For Public schools it is called "Out of District" and the district fee must be paid (similar to tuition that PCL and Inter Ac schools pay). Someone from Norristown can attend Ridley and pay the Out of District fee.

Public schools are a by- product of our Constitution that says we must provide an education for everyone. Therefore public schools are free to attend for those living in the district that collects the property taxes funding the district schools. Our Constitution does not say anything about providing (and paying for) a sports program, this is something that evolved. I find it incorrigible that coaches (and alumni) feel territorial towards athletes in their district. Their are no constitutional rights that say someone must attend a certain school because they live in that district. They have the right to attend whatever school they choose for whatever benefit they desire. The only difference is attending the non district choice has a "price tag".

Coaches of Public schools are compensated for their time and efforts dedicated to their school program thru Property Tax dollars of all residents in that district. High School Athletes are not compensated, not under any obligation or contract to provide any services to their district school. They live in a country that provides freedom of choices and therefore should be able to attend and switch schools at their desire without any consequence / punishment such as sitting out a year. We do not punish ourselves when we change jobs, we do not punish anyone in the band, choir or play for changing schools!!!!

Freedom is our society, not Communism!

 

[green_beans]

00shoe & tula - You both bring up very good points..I think being we are on a sports board (not to speak for everyone else).. our conversation revolves around open enrollment from a sports perspective. In reality it's much more complicated... One of the benefits of living in the NP school district (life long resident of NP school district) is it's "relatively" affordable school taxes compared to say Central Bucks which are about double.

If NP went the open enrollment route without some type of voucher system in place, I'm guessing it would have an impact on our school taxes and may include some type of voter approval.

I remember years ago when NP choose to expand the current high school vs building a second high school it was a very hot topic.. tax base vs quality of education in a smaller setting.. etc..

It will be interesting as more cyber schools and charter schools fight for their share of the tax base.

 

[coverandmove1]

There you have it folks, any player to any school. I will begin my recruiting efforts for my high school today so as to build a super team. Prep will have an 8th grader on the sideline this weekend to meet coach, just as LaSalle did several weeks ago. I think I may sign up a couple of elementary school kids this weekend.

 

[the_real_FballFan56]

Part of what you're getting at is the difference between an urban setting and a suburban setting. Open enrollment is pretty much a necessity in urban districts (given the different needs of students and the fact that you have students living within an easy commute for lots of schools with special areas of emphasis, whether that area is science, skilled trades, or the arts. And Catholic schools need open enrollment just to survive ever since demographic and cultural changes brought an end to the old system of large Catholic elementary schools that could feed particular high schools). The fact that open enrollment provides advantages to some schools when it comes to sports is a kind of extra, but it's never been what's driven open enrollment in urban high schools or in Catholic schools. As for District 1, I suspect a more open enrollment policy is coming down the pike as more and more parents, for a variety of reasons, insist upon having more choices.

A form of open enrollment is already happening in the 'burbs which I'm sure everyone is already familiar with: some school districts accept tuition paying students who live outside of their boundaries. I'm aware of one such case (not football) where a student living in one Montgomery County SD attends the HS in the neighboring district where this student has been a star on one of that district's HS teams. Meanwhile, a younger sibling attends HS in the home district. Why did this student do this? The neighboring district's program in the student's sport of choice (both club and varsity) is vastly superior to what's offered in the home district (superior in terms of facilities, coaching, club options, team performance).

 

[the_real_FballFan56]

There you have it folks, any player to any school. I will begin my recruiting efforts for my high school today so as to build a super team. Prep will have an 8th grader on the sideline this weekend to meet coach, just as LaSalle did several weeks ago. I think I may sign up a couple of elementary school kids this weekend.

Not sure I understand what you are attempting to say. When attending my district's HS football games in past years I have noticed on multiple occasions the presence of young kids on the sidelines whom I'd assume must attend the district middle or elementary schools (a reasonable assumption). How does that situation differ from what you describe? Why wouldn't non-public high schools be able to do the same? I believe PIAA regs say something about feeder schools for the non-public Catholics, so what are you assuming about the kids you see standing on the sidelines at games involving non-publics? Are your assumptions reasonable?

 

[tulla]

There you have it folks, any player to any school. I will begin my recruiting efforts for my high school today so as to build a super team. Prep will have an 8th grader on the sideline this weekend to meet coach, just as LaSalle did several weeks ago. I think I may sign up a couple of elementary school kids this weekend.

Your frame is too narrow. The Prep--and LaSalle, Malvern, Wood, Haverford School, etc.--will have 8th grade kids at as many school events as they can. They must recruit students, not just "players," to survive. They have advantages and disadvantages. Just because you play football at the Prep, it doesn't follow you won't have to pay a very substantial tuition bill. It is also the case that at just about all the private schools, incl. SJP, there is a substantially higher academic threshold for acceptance and continuing eligibility. The Prep doesn't accept every very promising student/athlete who applies and invariably they lose students/players, usually after freshman year. Of course, the school's ability--partly due to location--to accept students from a wide geographical area is a very large advantage.

I can see a good argument for having separate PIAA classes for "Non-Public" schools, but this "Jersey model" might just do what it has done in Jersey: make the differences in quality or level of play even greater. The Ohio model seems to me the better one. Parkland beat LaSalle last year and almost beat the Prep the year before--as did Pine-Richland. North Penn beat LaSalle in the playoffs a few years ago. We're not looking at lots of uncompetitive games.

 

[coverandmove1]

I am assuming, no, I know for fact that these or at least some of these kids have been and are invited to watch the game and meet the coach as part of a recruitment effort and sales pitch to attract them to that school, primarily for sports reasons with I'm sure a financial package for enticement

 

[tulla]

I am assuming, no, I know for fact that these or at least some of these kids have been and are invited to watch the game and meet the coach as part of a recruitment effort and sales pitch to attract them to that school, primarily for sports reasons with I'm sure a financial package for enticement

Any student can go to the local public school for free--school bus, if needed, is free, books are free, etc. Whatever "enticements" private (including all Catholic) schools can offer, families are still left almost always with substantial tuition bills and all kinds of extras to pay for out of pocket. On which side does the advantage lie?

 

[coverandmove1]

Substantial is doubtful sir.

 

[tulla]

Substantial is doubtful sir.

What information do you have that makes you doubtful?

If you think the Prep can or does give free rides or nearly free rides to most of the players or even most of the starters on its football team, you've been deluded or are deluding yourself.

 

[coverandmove1]

Let's say I know several who don't have substantial bills, obviously can't name names. I'm sure not all, ones who need help will get it, to get that kid to play there and you are delusional if you think different.

 

[paul from philly]

Let's say I know several who don't have substantial bills, obviously can't name names. I'm sure not all, ones who need help will get it, to get that kid to play there and you are delusional if you think different.

Substantial is a relative term. What you think is substantial might not be for someone else. But a bill is being paid. No free rides!

 

[tulla]

Let's say I know several who don't have substantial bills, obviously can't name names. I'm sure not all, ones who need help will get it, to get that kid to play there and you are delusional if you think different.

A problem with message boards: anyone can make almost any claim or innuendo--anonymously. Here's a simple fact: every family of every player on the Prep team pays more than every family of every player on, say, the North Penn team. And if there is any family of a Prep player that doesn't spend at least $1,000 a year, I would be very surprised. Of course, the great majority spend much more than that.

 

[tulla]

Substantial is a relative term. What you think is substantial might not be for someone else. But a bill is being paid. No free rides!

You're dead right, Paul. Anyone who thinks the Runyons got anything close to a free ride is, at best, dreaming.

 

[coverandmove1]

Ok guys, you win. But my anonymous comments, posts are legit, fact based and true. I know I'm right, don't need to prove it to anyone and I'm comfortable with that. Been a nice chat.

 

[green_beans]

wait.. you can't tell me that spending $1K for an education (even if it's $5K) for what would cost the avg person $18K is not a deal..my kids go to a catholic HS by my choice.. well actually my wife's choice which is a different conversation.... if they could get into prep for the same costs the avg catholic HS, I would have them there in a heart beat.. I'm not saying it right or wrong.. it's the way of the world.. there are some private schools offer some type of benefit if you are good in math or sciences.. I believe the Mount offers art scholarships.. it is all within their right to do so..so please take of the blinders.. it does happen.. and no one is breaking any laws

I'm glad the Runyons open up their finances with you so you have the facts with his tution..

 

[CYOBALL1]

News flash, its happening everywhere not just SJP.
I mean everywhere. They are the topic of conversation because they are currently the most successful.
Enter someone's "LaSalle is arguably more successful" comment. Well to you, yes its happening at LaSalle as well.
At the end of the day who really cares. If you're a competing private or catholic school take a look in the mirror and up your game. If you're a suburban public school that's losing kids to prep and lasalle then make your program more attractive.
At the end of the day I can say that I know for a fact that everyone pays SOMETHING at Prep. No free rides given out there.

 

[tulla]

wait.. you can't tell me that spending $1K for an education (even if it's $5K) for what would cost the avg person $18K is not a deal..my kids go to a catholic HS by my choice.. well actually my wife's choice which is a different conversation.... if they could get into prep for the same costs the avg catholic HS, I would have them there in a heart beat.. I'm not saying it right or wrong.. it's the way of the world.. there are some private schools offer some type of benefit if you are good in math or sciences.. I believe the Mount offers art scholarships.. it is all within their right to do so..so please take of the blinders.. it does happen.. and no one is breaking any laws

I'm glad the Runyons open up their finances with you so you have the facts with his tution..

I used the Runyon example because the family's wealth, with the father a longtime NFL player in the contemporary (i.e. high salary) era and a member of congress whose salary was a matter of public record and with the family living in the house they lived in in Jersey, is probably a given. My point was that the Prep does not give free rides to any family that can afford to pay the tuition. Decades ago when I was there applicants who scored highest in the entrance exam were offered full scholarships and partial scholarships. My understanding--based on information from family members who have worked there and from information available to all--is that no student, whether a top scorer in the entrance exam or a top scorer in football or basketball, gets anything close to a free ride if their families can afford the full tuition. In fact, there have been outstanding football players from families with relatively high incomes who have received no deductions in tuition.

Financial support for students who play football at the Prep needs to be looked at in context of how financial support works for all the students at the Prep. If you think the school community would support charging a family only $1,000 for a student who is a good football player when that family would be paying full tuition or something close to it if the student did not play football, you'd be way off the mark. I'm not saying there are no dedicated funds to support some football-playing students, but those funds are dwarfed by the funds to support all students whose families need some help with tuition.

 

[btm2070]

There you have it folks, any player to any school. I will begin my recruiting efforts for my high school today so as to build a super team. Prep will have an 8th grader on the sideline this weekend to meet coach, just as LaSalle did several weeks ago. I think I may sign up a couple of elementary school kids this weekend.

Hmm? I happen to be at the North Penn game last night, they didn't have A player on their sideline, they had two teams! RIDICULOUS! Again with the recruiting and open enrollment, MOVE ON! And yes SJP with have young men at their game tonight

 

[green_beans]

Two teams?? Are you referring to the cannoneers and squires .. The have had the local youth teams every home coming game for years... If that's who your talking about the kids age range from flag to 7th graders.. Actually they are there most weekends.. Supporting their brothers, cousins etc..When they wear their youth jersey they get in for free.., I believe it's called giving back to the community

As far as the field sidelines go the only kids there was two ball boys a couple students with cameras and i think I saw one or two kids from the challenger program which NP players volunteer to help every Sunday.. It's a Great program ..

 

[tulla]

I'm wondering what it is that some of the posters who seem so annoyed about SJP's recruiting want. I assume they recognize that schools like SJP are perfectly within their rights to recruit students. They've always done so and, in fact, need to do so. So do they want schools like North Penn to stop playing private schools? Public schools can choose to do that, but it seems most want to continue playing private schools. Do they want separate classifications in the PIAA for private schools? Public schools can advocate for that within the PIAA and individuals are free to lobby in any way they choose for the change. But the likely consequences of that change should first be considered.

I can't help but notice that it's really only when private schools have particularly successful teams that the complaints arise. I haven't, for instance, seen or heard any complaints about Lansdale Catholic or Conwell-Egan or Archbishop Carroll or Ryan recruiting--even though they also recruit.

 

[green_beans]

I'll make it easy to drop the recruiting issue (at least with me).. you are right and I am wrong.. everyone goes to the school of their choice and pays full price... everything else is just fodder