The Greatest Generation ?

[Stalker]

Any you guys ever consider or question Tom Brokaw’s claim to the WW-2 generation being the greatest generation? How does the WW2 group stand out above all other American generations; a TALL order. Any thoughts?

 

[tulla]

Any you guys ever consider or question Tom Brokaw’s claim to the WW-2 generation being the greatest generation? How does the WW2 group stand out above all other American generations; a TALL order. Any thoughts?

A few thoughts:

• Brokaw's argument was that this generation of Americans not only helped win WW2 but also came of age during the Depression. So the argument was that they overcame two huge challenges. There's a lot of truth to it, but it's not so simple. Some of the people who fought in WW2 came of age after the worst of the Depression was over. It is also true that this generation benefited greatly from the long post-war expansion of the American economy. Of course they were partly responsible for that expansion, but the U.S. (unlike Britain, for instance) was better positioned than any other country to grow rapidly after the war.
• I have no idea how one could compare "the Greatest Generation" with, say, the generation that fought in the Civil War. I'm not saying one is greater; it's just that Brokaw had living members of the GG all around him and lots of documentation, including film, radio, etc. while only a handful of Civil War vets were alive when Brokaw was born (1940). (Those Matthew Brady photos are amazing, though.)
• Brokaw's primary motivation may have been gratitude and admiration, but writing a book in high praise of a generation of book buyers and people who had lots of books bought for them (think of all the people who must have given his book as a Father's Day, Mother's Day, birthday or Christmas present) was as close to a "can't miss being a bestseller" book as you'll find. No way he was going to title it "Maybe the Greatest Generation."
• The concept of "generation" has its limits. I think of the waves of immigrants who came to this country through much of the 19th century and into the 20th and who lived, in many cases, really difficult lives (in some cases worse than they lives they would have lived had they stayed where they were) mainly in order to give their children a better chance. I think of my grandmother who came at the beginning of the 20th century as an 18 year old responsible for a younger sister who came with her, worked as a maid for sometimes awful employers, saw her first child die at age 8 essentially because of poverty, and did a great job raising six more children despite awful arthritis. Her husband, my grandfather (also an immigrant), worked split shifts (five hours in the morning and five hours late in the day) seven days a week (at one point without a day off for 11 years) driving a trolley--out Walnut, in Chestnut. His motive: he was determined no other child of his would die because of poverty. But there is no single "immigrant generation." Still, millions of immigrants like them played a huge role in building America. Then there is the African-American story ...

 

[njfan47]

A few thoughts:

• Brokaw's argument was that this generation of Americans not only helped win WW2 but also came of age during the Depression. So the argument was that they overcame two huge challenges. There's a lot of truth to it, but it's not so simple. Some of the people who fought in WW2 came of age after the worst of the Depression was over. It is also true that this generation benefited greatly from the long post-war expansion of the American economy. Of course they were partly responsible for that expansion, but the U.S. (unlike Britain, for instance) was better positioned than any other country to grow rapidly after the war.
• I have no idea how one could compare "the Greatest Generation" with, say, the generation that fought in the Civil War. I'm not saying one is greater; it's just that Brokaw had living members of the GG all around him and lots of documentation, including film, radio, etc. while only a handful of Civil War vets were alive when Brokaw was born (1940). (Those Matthew Brady photos are amazing, though.)
• Brokaw's primary motivation may have been gratitude and admiration, but writing a book in high praise of a generation of book buyers and people who had lots of books bought for them (think of all the people who must have given his book as a Father's Day, Mother's Day, birthday or Christmas present) was as close to a "can't miss being a bestseller" book as you'll find. No way he was going to title it "Maybe the Greatest Generation."
• The concept of "generation" has its limits. I think of the waves of immigrants who came to this country through much of the 19th century and into the 20th and who lived, in many cases, really difficult lives (in some cases worse than they lives they would have lived had they stayed where they were) mainly in order to give their children a better chance. I think of my grandmother who came at the beginning of the 20th century as an 18 year old responsible for a younger sister who came with her, worked as a maid for sometimes awful employers, saw her first child die at age 8 essentially because of poverty, and did a great job raising six more children despite awful arthritis. Her husband, my grandfather (also an immigrant), worked split shifts (five hours in the morning and five hours late in the day) seven days a week (at one point without a day off for 11 years) driving a trolley--out Walnut, in Chestnut. His motive: he was determined no other child of his would die because of poverty. But there is no single "immigrant generation." Still, millions of immigrants like them played a huge role in building America. Then there is the African-American story ...

Incredibly good summary. You kind of went there and I agree that the Civil War generation was very special. Great story about your grandparents.

 

[tulla]

Incredibly good summary. You kind of went there and I agree that the Civil War generation was very special. Great story about your grandparents.

Maybe like yours, my parents were part of what Brokaw called the GG, but my father and all his siblings (two of whom landed on Omaha Beach on D-Day) would say their parents had much, much harder--and more accomplished-- lives.

 

[paul from philly]

I must humbly disagree with you. It's not so far removed that these citizens lived through TWO world wars, the great depression, and the building of America through business and the "baby boomers". Granted you can say the generation of the Civil War, the Revolutionary War and so forth. But never in the history of the US had so much upheaval happened in such a short period of time. Two world wars! Think of it. And there were other depressions in America's history but only one gets the adjective THE GREAT put in front of it. And for good reason. It lasted for over 10 years. And all the while, immigrants were flooding into this country trying to put together a life for themselves. Then there is the building and the rise of the middle class after the war. It could have gone sideways but it didn't. I like this discussion and banter but I think one thing we can all agree upon is the generations that are alive right now aren't even close to anything great!

 

[sammyk]

I agree with you on the Depression and WWI and WWII but America was going to prosper after WWII no matter what because they were the only place left in the world that had an untouched landscape. Europe was blown to hell, China was destroyed as was Russia and Japan was well blown apart by atom bomb plus the US lost a lot fewer people than other countries. Germany lost 9 million, China 20 million, USSR 25 million, Japan 3.2 million, Poland 5.2 Million, Yugoslavia 1.1 million, Romania 833,000 while we the USA lost just 419,000, so that helped with our economic boom as well . But that generation to me did a lot to take it's place at the top of the list as generations that accomplished the most

 

[tulla]

I must humbly disagree with you. It's not so far removed that these citizens lived through TWO world wars, the great depression, and the building of America through business and the "baby boomers". Granted you can say the generation of the Civil War, the Revolutionary War and so forth. But never in the history of the US had so much upheaval happened in such a short period of time. Two world wars! Think of it. And there were other depressions in America's history but only one gets the adjective THE GREAT put in front of it. And for good reason. It lasted for over 10 years. And all the while, immigrants were flooding into this country trying to put together a life for themselves. Then there is the building and the rise of the middle class after the war. It could have gone sideways but it didn't. I like this discussion and banter but I think one thing we can all agree upon is the generations that are alive right now aren't even close to anything great!

Paul, The great majority of Americans who fought in WW2 were born after WW1 had ended. That is, if you were born at the end of WW1 you were 23 when WW2 began--and that of course doesn't include all those born during WW1 and in the years just before it who for all intents and purposes didn't really "live through" WW1. Only a handful of Americans actually fought in both wars.

 

[paul from philly]

Paul, The great majority of Americans who fought in WW2 were born after WW1 had ended. That is, if you were born at the end of WW1 you were 23 when WW2 began--and that of course doesn't include all those born during WW1 and in the years just before it who for all intents and purposes didn't really "live through" WW1. Only a handful of Americans actually fought in both wars.

Tulla, I'm not saying anyone fought in both world wars. But my father was born in 1907. So there were a lot of people who LIVED through both wars. He always said he remembered the rationing and the end of the war. Then he did serve in World War 2. Taking a man from Frankford and send him over to Asia when the furthest he had been from home was Mt. Airy?? He had a scar on the back of his leg, not much of anything but he got it during the war from an air raid. He was told to apply for a purple heart but when he found out they would wire his parents, he said no because he didn't want them to worry. Pissed him off because if he had gotten the medal, they would have rotated him home 6 months earlier. Came home and got married when he was forty and had a family of 7. Kind of neat having a father that old. Saw a lot of history. Best story he ever had was May 6, 1937. He was walking along the street in Philly when a buddy of his stopped him and asked if he wanted to take a ride with him to see a friend off. Where were they going?? Lakehurst New Jersey. He saw the whole thing!! He was truly the example of the Greatest Generation so you'll understand why I vote for his generation.

 

[tulla]

Paul, I understand your vote. Your father sounds like a very admirable man. But he was a great exception in having been old enough to have had living memories of the WW1 period and having fought in WW2. Most of his peers in WW2 would have been about 15 years younger.

I guess I have two main points. First, we have nothing close to an objective measure to compare generations, so this is all a matter of subjectivity and since many of us, including you and me, on this board are old enough to have very close connections to the generation of people born roughly a century ago we have a clear and understandable bias. Second, the very idea of "the greatest generation" carries the whiff of marketing about it. Compare that generation in the U.S. with the same generation in Britain. Over there both wars were much longer--the American effort on the ground in WW1 lasted about a year--and of course Britain endured horrific bombing and lived with the very real prospect of a German invasion across the narrow English Channel for much of WW2. But maybe because of British understatement or because their history is longer or because of some other reason, I haven't heard of such a phrase being used over there.

 

[paul from philly]

Paul, I understand your vote. Your father sounds like a very admirable man. But he was a great exception in having been old enough to have had living memories of the WW1 period and having fought in WW2. Most of his peers in WW2 would have been about 15 years younger.

I guess I have two main points. First, we have nothing close to an objective measure to compare generations, so this is all a matter of subjectivity and since many of us, including you and me, on this board are old enough to have very close connections to the generation of people born roughly a century ago we have a clear and understandable bias. Second, the very idea of "the greatest generation" carries the whiff of marketing about it. Compare that generation in the U.S. with the same generation in Britain. Over there both wars were much longer--the American effort on the ground in WW1 lasted about a year--and of course Britain endured horrific bombing and lived with the very real prospect of a German invasion across the narrow English Channel for much of WW2. But maybe because of British understatement or because their history is longer or because of some other reason, I haven't heard of such a phrase being used over there.

Very good points Tulla but to that point, todays generations wouldn't stand a chance in the conversation.

 

[Stalker]

Thanks Tulla, Paul, NJ, Sammy for all that. Your views were interesting and in some cases personalized with flesh and blood bringing it to life. Thanks for sharing at such a personal level, reminding us these were real people, our people, who lived through those times.

Tulla’s grandparents immigrating to our shores with relatives landing on another shore in France, Paul’s father wounded in Asia then witnessing the Hindenburg at Lakehurst, sammy pointing out America almost couldn’t miss with Paul cautioning it could have gone sideways. Tulla, my dad was in the skies above your dad with the 8th Air Force in his beloved B-17. And here "we" are.

That was a tough question. And with the word “greatest” in there, there is nothing close to a objective measure to compare generations….as Tulla maintains. I want to say the Civil War generation for a ton of reasons but that was a generation which tore itself to pieces; half of them trying to destroy the country. And if you say American Revolution some will argue that the Founding Fathers owning slaves throws a wrench. To me, those two wars are the more profound moments in our history.

 

[paul from philly]

Thanks for the thread Stalaker, that was pretty good!!

 

[njfan47]

Maybe like yours, my parents were part of what Brokaw called the GG, but my father and all his siblings (two of whom landed on Omaha Beach on D-Day) would say their parents had much, much harder--and more accomplished-- lives.

You are correct. My Mom grew up in Ireland. Her dad was a horse farmhand who would travel from Ireland to Sacramento, California for 2-3 years at a time, three different times, in order to raise money for the family back in Ireland. In between, they had three sets of three children. She was the second youngest of nine and didn't have it easy, but her parents' lives were much more difficult.