Prep-LaSalle | Round 2

[roxychknpoxy]

you don't get it, though i think you are just pretending to not get it

it takes a very good public school team and a "weak" SJP team to win a state title these days,

SJP's "weak" teams are still good enough to make the state title game, which probably makes them better than most teams have ever had in their school history

if Imhotep beats them that won't change my mind, because they have many advantages too

The advantage is open boundary. Thats it, and likely a better opportunity academically and athletically for some.

Tulla pointed out that you contradicted yourself.

Bottom line - better football and athletes in the east now based on demographics- all numbers. Western PA has a legendary past but scale is what it is. The east and PCL has done it this way forever. LaSalle is back with a great coach and while routing for them against Prep isn’t in this guys dna, I’d route for them or anyone else out of the East.

 

[tulla]

you don't get it, though i think you are just pretending to not get it

it takes a very good public school team and a "weak" SJP team to win a state title these days,

SJP's "weak" teams are still good enough to make the state title game, which probably makes them better than most teams have ever had in their school history

if Imhotep beats them that won't change my mind, because they have many advantages too

I've never suggested a reasonable case can't be made for separating boundary and non-boundary schools in the state playoffs.

Some states (e.g. New Jersey and Maryland) do it and some states (e.g., Ohio and Florida) don't. Maybe practical considerations like the size and demographics of the state come into play.

My main points are as follows: 1) Many of the things said about SJP are not true, e.g. they don't have players from four states (almost always their players, like the rest of the students, come only from south Jersey and southeastern PA) and most families of football players pay what most would regard as substantial amounts of money for tuition and fees; 2) SJP has the same advantage (no boundaries) as many other (mostly but not all Catholic) schools have, so whatever happens to SJP should happen to all the non-boundary schools (PCC, Scranton Prep, Allentown CC, Bishop McDevitt, IHHOTEP, etc.); 3) the notion that SJP's non-boundaries advantage is especially unfair because it sits in the middle of a very large population centre ignores the fact that, unlike in PCC's case, there are a large number of non-boundary schools in the same area--not only the other dozen or so PCL schools (including Roman which is even more centrally located) but the six Inter-Ac schools (which are also keen on sports and often have much better facilities), IMHOTEP, and several Catholic schools in Jersey; 4) if the non-boundary schools are separated there will inevitably be lots of claims from supporters of public school teams that their teams would have or could have beaten the non-boundary school x if only they had been able to meet in the playoffs; and 5) there is a risk that if the separation happens the perception will grow, at least in some parts of the state, that the non-boundary schools are playing in the "A League" and the boundary schools are playing in the "B League." Something like this seems to have happened in Jersey. In Ohio, on the other hand, there appears to be rough parity. Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.

There are loads of questions / problems that will arise if the separation happens. For instance, will separation also apply to all the other sports? If so, how would this be at all practicable?

For what it's worth, I think there is almost no chance the Prep dominates its classification in football in the foreseeable future in the way it has dominated it since 2013. So if the driving force behind the proposal for separation is to solve "the SJP problem," then the problem, if it truly is a problem, will very likely solve itself pretty soon.

 

[new2pa]

Unless Imhotep has drastically changed their coaching staff, SJP will run circles around them schematically.

 

[lilromeo]

Unless Imhotep has drastically changed their coaching staff, SJP will run circles around them schematically.

tep certainly has the athletes,and last years team had a good QB and a kicker for a change. Prep should as you indicated outcoach Tep,but with Coleman running the rock they could score some.

 

[D1 Transplant]

I've never suggested a reasonable case can't be made for separating boundary and non-boundary schools in the state playoffs.

Some states (e.g. New Jersey and Maryland) do it and some states (e.g., Ohio and Florida) don't. Maybe practical considerations like the size and demographics of the state come into play.

My main points are as follows: 1) Many of the things said about SJP are not true, e.g. they don't have players from four states (almost always their players, like the rest of the students, come only from south Jersey and southeastern PA) and most families of football players pay what most would regard as substantial amounts of money for tuition and fees; 2) SJP has the same advantage (no boundaries) as many other (mostly but not all Catholic) schools have, so whatever happens to SJP should happen to all the non-boundary schools (PCC, Scranton Prep, Allentown CC, Bishop McDevitt, IHHOTEP, etc.); 3) the notion that SJP's non-boundaries advantage is especially unfair because it sits in the middle of a very large population centre ignores the fact that, unlike in PCC's case, there are a large number of non-boundary schools in the same area--not only the other dozen or so PCL schools (including Roman which is even more centrally located) but the six Inter-Ac schools (which are also keen on sports and often have much better facilities), IMHOTEP, and several Catholic schools in Jersey; 4) if the non-boundary schools are separated there will inevitably be lots of claims from supporters of public school teams that their teams would have or could have beaten the non-boundary school x if only they had been able to meet in the playoffs; and 5) there is a risk that if the separation happens the perception will grow, at least in some parts of the state, that the non-boundary schools are playing in the "A League" and the boundary schools are playing in the "B League." Something like this seems to have happened in Jersey. In Ohio, on the other hand, there appears to be rough parity. Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.

There are loads of questions / problems that will arise if the separation happens. For instance, will separation also apply to all the other sports? If so, how would this be at all practicable?

For what it's worth, I think there is almost no chance the Prep dominates its classification in football in the foreseeable future in the way it has dominated it since 2013. So if the driving force behind the proposal for separation is to solve "the SJP problem," then the problem, if it truly is a problem, will very likely solve itself pretty soon.

Tulla,
Good points, but number 4 makes no sense to me. Why would anyone care if people say the public schools could have/would have beaten the private recruiting schools. That's not a good reason not to separate them. Plus, you've been saying for the last 5 years that Prep won't dominate like they have, yes they will. I harken back to an article shared on this board last year. The wrestling coach from Wyoming Seminary, which is near Scranton, and is a private, recruiting wrestling power house said it would be entirely unfair, and bad sportsmanship for his teams to compete against local boundary schools in state championships. That is the attitude that all highly recruited schools should take. If St Joes Prep wants to play football on a national level, which I truly admire them for, then get out of the PLC, and the PIAA, and join the Inter-Ac league. I don't believe in separating the boundaries from non-boundaries, but St Joe's Prep is now a different animal from the Father Judges, and Notre Dame Green Pond's of this world.

 

[tulla]

Tulla,
Good points, but number 4 makes no sense to me. Why would anyone care if people say the public schools could have/would have beaten the private recruiting schools. That's not a good reason not to separate them. Plus, you've been saying for the last 5 years that Prep won't dominate like they have, yes they will. I harken back to an article shared on this board last year. The wrestling coach from Wyoming Seminary, which is near Scranton, and is a private, recruiting wrestling power house said it would be entirely unfair, and bad sportsmanship for his teams to compete against local boundary schools in state championships. If St Joes Prep wants to play football on a national level, which I truly admire them for, then get out of the PLC, and the PIAA, and join the Inter-Ac league. I don't believe in separating the boundaries from non-boundaries, but St Joe's Prep is now a different animal from the Father Judges, and Notre Dame Green Pond's of this world.

D1,

When I wrote point #4, I was thinking back to 2003 when SJP was ranked #3 nationally and many supporters of North Penn and other public schools said "If only NP and SJP played ..." with many suggesting that the rigors of the PIAA playoff system would be a test that SJP might not pass. That's what gave particular rise to the PCL joining the PIAA.

Yes, I thought the gap between SJP and other schools in their class in PA would have closed or at least be a lot closer than it's been lately. Certainly within the PCL it closed quite a bit this year. Obviously the two games against LaSalle are evidence. Looking at the two rosters, I wouldn't be surprised if LaSalle goes into next year as the favorite. Roman sometimes looked very good but they shot themselves in the foot against SJP. But SJP is not going to leave the PCL since they've been members since the league was established about a century ago. And I don't think the rest of the PCL wants them to leave. (And I can't imagine the Inter-Ac wants them.)

I also expected--especially after the PCC-SJP game in 2019--teams like PCC would be stronger than they've been.

 

[new2pa]

I also expected--especially after the PCC-SJP game in 2019--teams like PCC would be stronger than they've been.

After watching many WPIAL games in 4A-5A-6A this season, it seems to me that they are all down compared to just a few years ago.

 

[tulla]

After watching many WPIAL games in 4A-5A-6A this season, it seems to me that they are all down compared to just a few years ago.

I wonder if the same can be said about teams in other parts of the state, e.g. districts 1, 3 and 11 and, if it is true, that's one reason Scranton Prep, SJP, Roman, LaSalle, and McDevitt (?) are attracting kids who have a good mix of talent and ambition. Some may see this as a chicken and egg situation, but if it's true in D 7 where PCC has obviously not been a dominant program in the last decade then maybe kids (and families) are looking at situations where their local high school--could be Catholic as well as public--has a weak or weakening program in a league that is also weakening but where private school x five to twenty miles away has a strong program year in and year out and also plays a more ambitious schedule, occasionally including games on ESPN, or maybe at Franklin Field, and sometimes before crowds like were there at the two SJP-LaSalle games.

 

[HSFB99]

Just based off the “eyeball test” I would say District 1 is certainly down at the 6A level. These Downingtown teams are significantly worse than a few years ago in my opinion; ditto for NP. These teams couldn’t make a Final Four 5-10 years ago in my view. Again, just my opinion.

 

[BradlyPitt]

The advantage is open boundary. Thats it, and likely a better opportunity academically and athletically for some.

Tulla pointed out that you contradicted yourself.

Bottom line - better football and athletes in the east now based on demographics- all numbers. Western PA has a legendary past but scale is what it is. The east and PCL has done it this way forever. LaSalle is back with a great coach and while routing for them against Prep isn’t in this guys dna, I’d route for them or anyone else out of the East.

"that's it" you say, open boundary is the only advantage

i got news for you pal, that's everything

take that away, they got nothing

 

[bucksftball]

Just based off the “eyeball test” I would say District 1 is certainly down at the 6A level. These Downingtown teams are significantly worse than a few years ago in my opinion; ditto for NP. These teams couldn’t make a Final Four 5-10 years ago in my view. Again, just my opinion.

I'll talk about District 1 and then Central Bucks specifically, although some of it applies to all districts I would think.

District 1:
1. Major demographic shifts in a lot of towns transitioning from mainly blue collar to white collar upper middle class, along with different ethnic groups moving into the area. That yields fewer football players in a time that there is already a shrinking group of kids playing the sport.
2. Increasing number of specializing, one-sport athletes.
3. To illustrate, look at the North Penn sideline / roster. Still a decent size, maybe 70 kids? (I didn't take the time to look / count) It's not that long ago that they had duplicate numbers on the sideline because they were dressing well over 100.
4. Athletes travelling a long way to attend privates. Some of them are following family traditions even though the families have moved into the suburbs, others obviously feel that they have a better opportunity elsewhere.

Central Bucks:
1. Even though this area has undergone the same demographic shifts as I talked about above, it is still producing a LOT of football talent. Central Bucks became less relevant on the state level only because of the opening of CB South.
2. If West / East hadn't been split, each of those schools would be around the size of Pennsbury HS. Still smaller than North Penn and Neshaminy, but still would be two of the largest in District 1. With the right staffs in place (Like Rowan at West), they wouldn't even be challenged in the SOL National. Add half the South starters to CB West this year, and do they even play a close game? (If you're a South guy, feel free to imagine adding half the West roster to your team) Last year, can they give the Prep a game? Maybe that's a stretch but there wouldn't be a team in the state outside of Prep that they'd worry about lining up against. They'd average 275-280 across the front every year, have a stable of backs to choose from, and could easily two-platoon with no drop off. They'd be able to survive the loss of players to the privates, although they might not leave as often as they do now if West and/or East were powerhouses.
3. Sidwar left Central Bucks (South) to reclassify and repeat 8th grade (this would be his senior year if he had stayed), Lasalle had 7 starters coming from West territory alone in 2022, etc..
Conclusion: Football participation is down, demographics have changed, players to privates from the suburbs is up, schools got split up (not just in CB), and coaches just need to make due with what they have left. West dressed fewer than 40 players last week and I'm sure it'll be even lower this week. What I will say about District 1 is that in general everyone is dealing with similar issues so there isn't a big competitive advantage being gained anywhere, except that the divide between the publics and privates is almost certainly growing.

 

[BradlyPitt]

For what it's worth, I think there is almost no chance the Prep dominates its classification in football in the foreseeable future in the way it has dominated it since 2013. So if the driving force behind the proposal for separation is to solve "the SJP problem," then the problem, if it truly is a problem, will very likely solve itself pretty soon.

so 6 or 7 state titles within the next decade instead of 8?

 

[tulla]

so 6 or 7 state titles within the next decade instead of 8?

But it's you who referred to "MANY advantages."

If the Prep didn't have "open boundaries," it wouldn't exist. The school has always been without boundaries for all its students.

 

[tulla]

"that's it" you say, open boundary is the only advantage

i got news for you pal, that's everything

take that away, they got nothing

But it's you who referred to "MANY advantages."

If the Prep didn't have "open boundaries," it wouldn't exist. The school has always been without boundaries for all its students.

All private schools in PA, including LaSalle, Roman, Malvern, and PCC, are without boundaries.

 

[Frank_montco]

But it's you who referred to "MANY advantages."

If the Prep didn't have "open boundaries," it wouldn't exist. The school has always been without boundaries for all its students.

All private schools in PA, including LaSalle, Roman, Malvern, and PCC, are without boundaries.

Which is why the PCL as a football league basically has no meaning anymore Not hard to see the tiers of have an have nots in its own league. Archdiocese had no choice to keep schools open with open enrollment for all schools but if the talent was more evenly distributed to more PCL schools it should lesson the overall strength of SJP and La Salle. Philly mag article said it best. SJP does it best within the rules allowed and pushes the limits. if the PCL schools itself ever catches up, then so will PIAA by default. Seeing some hope with RC and MB. Keep system as it is. Makes winning a championship much more meaningful. Its almost comical schools like West Catholic and Wood few years ago were powerful and could compete at any level. Why? They had the players and roster. Delvin and Fluck with current rosters of WC and Wood would have same results.

 

[lilromeo]

I'll talk about District 1 and then Central Bucks specifically, although some of it applies to all districts I would think.

District 1:
1. Major demographic shifts in a lot of towns transitioning from mainly blue collar to white collar upper middle class, along with different ethnic groups moving into the area. That yields fewer football players in a time that there is already a shrinking group of kids playing the sport.
2. Increasing number of specializing, one-sport athletes.
3. To illustrate, look at the North Penn sideline / roster. Still a decent size, maybe 70 kids? (I didn't take the time to look / count) It's not that long ago that they had duplicate numbers on the sideline because they were dressing well over 100.
4. Athletes travelling a long way to attend privates. Some of them are following family traditions even though the families have moved into the suburbs, others obviously feel that they have a better opportunity elsewhere.

Central Bucks:
1. Even though this area has undergone the same demographic shifts as I talked about above, it is still producing a LOT of football talent. Central Bucks became less relevant on the state level only because of the opening of CB South.
2. If West / East hadn't been split, each of those schools would be around the size of Pennsbury HS. Still smaller than North Penn and Neshaminy, but still would be two of the largest in District 1. With the right staffs in place (Like Rowan at West), they wouldn't even be challenged in the SOL National. Add half the South starters to CB West this year, and do they even play a close game? (If you're a South guy, feel free to imagine adding half the West roster to your team) Last year, can they give the Prep a game? Maybe that's a stretch but there wouldn't be a team in the state outside of Prep that they'd worry about lining up against. They'd average 275-280 across the front every year, have a stable of backs to choose from, and could easily two-platoon with no drop off. They'd be able to survive the loss of players to the privates, although they might not leave as often as they do now if West and/or East were powerhouses.
3. Sidwar left Central Bucks (South) to reclassify and repeat 8th grade (this would be his senior year if he had stayed), Lasalle had 7 starters coming from West territory alone in 2022, etc..
Conclusion: Football participation is down, demographics have changed, players to privates from the suburbs is up, schools got split up (not just in CB), and coaches just need to make due with what they have left. West dressed fewer than 40 players last week and I'm sure it'll be even lower this week. What I will say about District 1 is that in general everyone is dealing with similar issues so there isn't a big competitive advantage being gained anywhere, except that the divide between the publics and privates is almost certainly growing.

One exception would be Wood, which has lost players to the other central bucks schools. BTW what the heck is going on over there anyway ??

 

[HSFB99]

That’s a good question Lil. I am not sure who is taking over, though I assume it will be the interim coach from this past year. With their recent struggles (and the success of CBs), it doesn’t seem like a great situation.

 

[lilromeo]

That’s a good question Lil. I am not sure who is taking over, though I assume it will be the interim coach from this past year. With their recent struggles (and the success of CBs), it doesn’t seem like a great situation.

Interesting item that since Wood has been failing miserably the Central Bucks Schools are doing quite nicely.

 

[BradlyPitt]

But it's you who referred to "MANY advantages."

If the Prep didn't have "open boundaries," it wouldn't exist. The school has always been without boundaries for all its students.

All private schools in PA, including LaSalle, Roman, Malvern, and PCC, are without boundaries.

none belong in the PIAA

yeah it seemed interesting for them to join in 2003, I think it's safe to say most of us have seen enough

now get out