North Korea backs away from threat to hit Guam...

Discussion in 'PaPreps Politics and Everything Else forum' started by njfan47, Aug 15, 2017.

  1. njfan47

    njfan47 Well-Known Member
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    Trump's tough talk, which hurt the liberals' feelings, definitely has an effect.

    Oops, a box of rocks told us last week that he was right, as if a war had already started. Delusional, but amusing!
     
  2. tulla

    tulla Well-Known Member
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    I haven't been following the comments from North Korea closely today, but if they have dropped talking about sending one or more missiles toward Guam, good. But the threats toward Guam only began last week. The much bigger issue is whether North Korea maintains and continues to develop its nuclear weapons. Let's see what progress is made in ending that program and that capability.
     
  3. njfan47

    njfan47 Well-Known Member
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    Of course they continue to develop their nuclear weapons. That's exactly what Bill Clinton allowed them to do. Ever wonder why the media rarely talks about that? Ever wonder why Incapabama never did anything?

    Tulla, are you going to answer the question about the big news story of a few weeks ago (i.e. media diversion away from the biggest theft in the history of the US)?
     
  4. tulla

    tulla Well-Known Member
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    It's true that American administrations since Clinton (including Bush and Obama) haven't been able to stop North Korea's nuclear program. It is clearly not an easy thing to do, especially when China is determined to prevent a collapse or overthrow of the North Korean government. I hope Trump is successful in helping to eliminate North Korea's nuclear capacity, but I am skeptical. It's interesting that the South Korean president has been using much less bellicose language than Trump.

    I'm not sure what big news story you are referring to. Please fill me in.
     
  5. njfan47

    njfan47 Well-Known Member
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    Clinton really kick started the North Koreans on their way toward nuclear proliferation. And the point is that it's not being reported.

    You and I had a dialogue about three weeks ago. You were consumed with the MS-13 and Boy Scout issue, and because the media didn't cover the release of the documents on the largest theft in the history of the USA, which was the largest story of the week, if not the year, you didn't know about it, apparently. And you apparently still don't know about it.
     
  6. tulla

    tulla Well-Known Member
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    I've seen lots of reports about and references to the lack of success of previous administrations in stopping the North Korean nuclear program. Anybody who thinks the problem started with Trump has had his or her head in the sand. Saying Clinton "kick started" the North Koreans in developing nuclear weapons goes too far, though.

    About MS-13: what I objected to was Trump telling police officers that he wants them to be "rough" with people in custody. Is that OK with you?

    What is "the largest story of the week, if not the year"? It seems you're sure there is general agreement what it is. Maybe there is general agreement among Trump supporters, who seem to constitute a steadily declining minority of Americans. I'm not, by the way, going to hold up CNN as a great model of fairness. I particularly object to the way some of their hosts interrupt, in a particularly contentious way, guests who support the president to varying degrees. In that respect they are mirroring one of the worst traits of Fox.
     
  7. njfan47

    njfan47 Well-Known Member
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    Show me one feature story on the front page of a NY Times, Washington Post, etc. Or a lead story or top-three story on the evening network news about Clinton's role in the current North Korea nuclear mess. I challenge you!

    Your MS-13 point is a classic case of where things get taken out of context. I saw that press conference live, and Trump said that the officers don't have to put their hand over the head of an individual who is getting into a police car. I agree with Trump 100%. It's a silly policy or practice.

    So, since you are apparently giving up, it's the theft of profits of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac by the Incapabama administration. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac stocks both crashed after Incapabama raided their profits to pay for what was already a failing Incapabamacareprogram. Federal law said that the government would take 10% of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac profits, but Incapabama took 100%. Estimates are always difficult, but it's probably something around $100 billion.

    Imagine if you had a lot of money in either stock; I didn't fortunately. I don't have the exact numbers, but the stock dropped from ~ $5 to $1.

    Lots of points here:
    1. This is clearly wrong and would have been a crime had it not been committed by the top governmental official.
    2. There was hope that Trump would have reversed this policy, but he hasn't done so yet. Possibly, he's waiting for the whole Incapabamacaremess to be sorted out; right now the funds are needed to keep the program going. This is a classic case of inheriting a mess.
    3. If the media had covered this story originally, it never would have been allowed to go on for long. The fact that they didn't should be a big problem. Anyone who doesn't wonder why they didn't cover it either doesn't care or can't think with any depth.
    One more point: you might be wondering why this was a big story three weeks ago; it's because that's when the documents were released.

    Maybe some democrats will try to minimize this or say that some facts listed above are wrong. The general overview of the situation is really not debatable, but no doubt there is some liberal website that has a different view. Point is that it's illegal to steal profits from a public company that is owned by shareholders. But, it's not surprising because Incapabama did the same thing to the Chrysler bondholders several years before; he called them greedy, when they only wanted what was legally guaranteed to them. Two criminal acts that probably will never be punished.
     
  8. tulla

    tulla Well-Known Member
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    I will respond to some points later but for now I'd just like to comment about Trump saying it's OK to be rough on people in custody. Yes, he was referring specifically to the practice of putting a hand on the suspect's head, but does anyone seriously think that he wasn't making a more general point? He said it's OK to be "rough"--something that is entirely consistent with his encouraging of his supporters to hit and beat up protesters at his rallies as a candidate. And now he is president. Have we ever had a president who told law enforcement officers it is OK to be anything other than entirely professional in how they treat people in custody? We're on a dangerously slippery slope.
     
  9. Stalker

    Stalker Well-Known Member
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    We have been on the slippery slope for some time now tulla with inept government and now, one sided news coverage. Trump is not the cause, rather, the result of this decline. Enjoy the ride, should say slide and keep your AR-15 locked and loaded cause it ain’t getting any better.
     
  10. tulla

    tulla Well-Known Member
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    Do you really think CNN is more one-sided than Fox or that all the the radio hosts and programs that support Trump or all the right-wing websites (like the one that promoted the idea of a child-sex ring being run out of a pizzeria) are not one-sided? Did you notice all the stories about Clinton's emails that ran in mainstream media in the last election cycle and all the coverage given to Trump's rallies by CNN? Did you see Matt Lauer's interviews with Trump and Clinton? Some Sundays I watch Meet the Press and whatever the ABC show is called and see a whole parade of Trump officials come on for interviews. They are always treated respectfully. It's not their fault that Gen. McMaster won't say whether he can work with Steve Bannon or that Kelianne Conway comes up with a new Newspeak term: "alternative facts."

    When have we ever seen a president attacking the attorney general? When have we ever had a WH Director of Communication calling the president's chief of staff a paranoid schizophrenic? When have we ever had a president who has lied about phone calls he never had (e.g. with the president of Mexico and the head of the Boy Scouts), about consultations that never happened (e.g. with military leaders about the ban on transgender people), about his predecessor (e.g about Obama having him "wiretapped"), etc? Do you think the CEOs of Walmart, Intel, Under Armour, and Merck are saying what they're saying because they are--as the ultimate grandstander has called them--grandstanders who in Trump's words "didn't take their jobs seriously"?

    And what in the world do you mean by suggesting I keep a gun "locked and loaded cause it ain't getting any better"? Sounds like you're looking forward to lots of violence.

    Did you see General Kelly today--arms folded and looking down--at the press conference? Tonight I heard Stephen Moore, a major economic adviser to the Trump campaign, say he wouldn't even try to defend what Trump said today.
     
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  11. Stalker

    Stalker Well-Known Member
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    I meant exactly what I said. It wasn’t a difficult statement to understand, was it? And because you have difficulty making a reasonable interpretation of a clear and simple statement, “locked and loaded since it ain’t getting any better”….you take it to another level saying absurd things like ”looks like you’re looking forward to a lot of violence”. So if I pack an umbrella and rain coat I’m hoping for a flood! Your reasoning and ability to deduce is flawed having you react emotionally instead of thinking, even over a simple statement.
     
  12. njfan47

    njfan47 Well-Known Member
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    Nah, I disagree. But we did just have a president who clearly had issues with the police and who handled numerous incidents very poorly, including the case in Cambridge, the case in Dallas, etc., not to mention the statement about having friends who could basically beat up Sean Hannity for him. Not that's about as low as it gets.
     
  13. njfan47

    njfan47 Well-Known Member
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    Tulla, I'll jump in very quickly here, if you don't mind. You always make good to great points and there is no doubt that the Trump administration, so far, has been a near three-ring circus, but none of it is major stuff. Stealing $100 billion is major stuff; in fact, it doesn't even compare.

    If Trump gets tax cuts or tax reform done, infrastructure repairs and buildout started, and the economy growing at close to or above 3%, none of it is going to matter.

    On your point about Fox, yes, generally they are as biased as CNN, except that they do have some liberal-leaning hosts, such as Shep Smith. And Chris Wallace is a democrat. At least there is a little bit of balance. The problem is that it's not just CNN on the left; it's also CBS, ABC, NBC, MSNBC, etc. It's just Fox on the right. One America and Newsmax aren't powerful (small audiences and not on many cable systems).

    As for the CEO's, most of it is due to public pressure. Under Armour's Kevin Plank probably had to resign to avoid sharply lower sales of his company's products.

    As for today's Trump press conference, he kicked the media's butt. But I knew they would spin it. They just can't handle him taking them on so strongly. John Harwood, on CNBC this afternoon after the press conference, appeared as if he had been crying prior to coming on TV; visibly upset and watery eyes. Then he started to speak and he clearly had not one objective bone in his body. It really is pretty sad. He offered no commentary on the possibility of hired protesters in the left group and the possibility that some had clubs and other weapons. At least investigate it, but that's just not what you are going to get because they have an ax to grind.
     
  14. tulla

    tulla Well-Known Member
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    I do have an emotional reaction to a president who lies and lies and who had the nerve to say today that unlike politicians he needs to have the facts before he speaks. Do you really think the lead Birther whose lies in the first six months about everything from the size of the crowd at his inauguration and the size of his electoral college victory to the number of Republican legislative victories fill an entire page--in small print--is, really the "most presidential" person to be president, aside from Lincoln. Don't such boasts concern you? Do you like a president who tweets an image of himself--fake, of course--body-slamming CNN? Do you like having to pretend that his mocking the reporting with the disability wasn't really what our eyes and our common sense tell us they were? Do you like a president who creates crude caricatures of all his opponents: lyin Ted, little Mario, crooked Hilary, Comey the grandstander. Is that something you admire? Does it bother you that the only international leaders he can't say a word against (Erdogan, Duterte, and Putin) are all thugs?

    As for the gun comment, you suggested I--and presumably everyone--should have guns locked and ready. I'm one of the millions of Americans who don't own a gun and I find the idea that we should think of needing to have a gun ready "just in case" (of what--the alt left?) more than a little disturbing.

    Just imagine if a Muslim immigrant had driven a car into a crowd, killing one person and injuring another 20 or so. Do you think Trump would refrain from calling it an act of Islamic extremism or terrorism? Would he have waited for all the "facts" to become clear?

    We have a president unfit for the office. Keep calling Obama names, but he was a president who in the face of vicious attacks--remember the congressman who shouted out "liar" in the middle of Obama's state of the union address, the West Virginia official who talked of Michelle as an ape--maintained great dignity. He took office when the country was in its greatest economic crisis since the Depression. Tell me how many western countries did better economically than the U.S. between 2009 and 2016. Nobody I know thinks he was perfect, but he didn't demean his opponents--Trump even demeans leaders in his own party and members of his cabinet--and he appealed to our hopes more than to our fears.
     
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  15. njfan47

    njfan47 Well-Known Member
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    Some good points, but it once again pales in comparison to stealing $100 billion from the public as Obama did. Obama's crimes make even Clinton look good.
     
  16. paul from philly

    paul from philly Well-Known Member
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    Trump might be just what this country and government needed. Dems and Repubs are getting together for a common cause. There's even talk of keeping Obamacare and fixing it with a bipartisan approach, which should have been the goal to begin with. Ordinary citizens finding common ground to stand up and call the president out when he is so obviously wrong. How 'bout that!! Chuck Schumer hugging Mitch McConnell?? Not quite, but there's hope. Thanks Don!!

    LIBERTARIAN 2018!!
     
  17. njfan47

    njfan47 Well-Known Member
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    Tulla, when I replied last night, I hadn't read your last paragraph. He's known widely as Incapabama because he got nothing done and many of his supporters say so.

    As for the U.S. having done well, first of all he came in after the Clinton Housing Bubblehad collapsed the economy, an event caused by, once again, bad liberal policy. The issue isn't how many western economies did better or worse than the U.S. during Incapabama's time; liberalism in most European countries had the same effect that it did in the U.S. Greece, for one, was a disaster. The U.S. had to use artificially low interest rates and buy $85 billion in t-bills per month just to avoid having the economy go into recession or collapse, and this wasn't just during Incapabama's first 2-3 years, it went on 5-6 years into his presidency. Further, the labor participation rate was poor during virtually all of his two terms.

    Have you stopped to think about the incidents in Charlottesville? Particularly:
    1. Why wasn't Virginia democratic governor Terry McAuliffe more pro-active in planning for potential problems?
    2. Did the Charlottesville police chief tell the police to stand down?
    3. Why wouldn't the police take a more pro-active role and separate the two groups?
    4. What role did antifa play in igniting violence??
    5. Did antifa have weapons that they intended to use?
    6. Who funded antifa?
    7. Did antifa truly not have a permit, as has been reported in some circles?
    8. If antifa didn't have a permit, why were they allowed to form and march?
    Let me know how many times you've heard these questions as part of a media investigation? I don't know about you, but I would prefer a thorough investigation to find out as much as possible about what really went on in Charlottesville. Knowing this information could help us to avoid conflicts like this in the future, if that's the goal (and I am not sure it is).
     
    17 njfan47, Aug 16, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017
  18. Stalker

    Stalker Well-Known Member
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    Call me cynical but I’m used to presidents lying but have always given Dems credit for doing it far better than Republicans. Why so worked up about this one except to guess (not accuse) it is personal?

    Flipping your lead paragraph; how do you explain the inappropriate behavior of people who protest, burn-loot and destroy property? I hear no outrage from you about that, while Trump gets criticized for every utterance. Why no outrage over the Left flipping out about everything, denying individuals freedom of speech in Berkeley and other cities. Why no disgust about Obama’s Iran and Korean policies that are coming back to haunt us as we speak? Meanwhile the Left and Dems get pissed off about a few statues (statues for crying out loud!?)....as the world laughs at us. Of course, I imagine the Left and many Dems will blame Trump for NKorea and Iran as well.

    Some of the things you mentioned in your first paragraph about Trump are things many of us do not like. But I’ll say it again, we have a system in this country to take care of this that I have faith in; due process, not that of the Left. And, I’ll take this over the abomination that was Hillary Clinton or any other offering from the party that has clearly failed.

    To throw it back at you more, don’t our major cities in financial ruin with crime rates through the roof concern you? They are overwhelmingly administered by Dems….for years. So what does Mayor de Blasio of NYC do, he “trips out” to Germany joining the anarchists and socialists at the G-20 Summit, knowing the infrastructure of the city is crumbling, literally breaking down, doors not opening on subway cars. There was also the funeral of a fallen police office, murdered on the job. Class act. No outrage there! This clown wants the FEDS, as in, We the People to kick in untold millions to rebuild the subway system while he takes freebee trips to Germany and gives away the farm with programs that further bankrupt the city. Is this misery and failed policy of that party also Trump’s fault? Reasonable people see the hypocrisy here. I’ve heard no outbursts from you on any of these issues while you list every discrepancy perceived or real by Trump. I won’t get into the Clinton/Lynch Tarmac issues that has garnered little attention either.


    Quoting you….“As for the gun comment, you suggested I--and presumably everyone--should have guns locked and ready. I'm one of the millions of Americans who don't own a gun and I find the idea that we should think of needing to have a gun ready "just in case" (of what--the alt left?) more thana little disturbing”.


    Once again you are off and running with assumption, eg “and presumably everyone”. And “of what—the alt left?” Why do you guys do that?....while blasting the president for any misstatements?

    The vast majority of us feel fine with guns as we were raised with them and yes of course I have a gun for protection if needed. I also have a lock on the door and use a seat belt in the car or is that extreme as well?

    If you don’t want to protect your family from those that would do them harm, fine. That you find it disturbing others do seems disturbing to me and I’d bet the vast majority of people. You can always try harsh language but I don’t think that’s going to work in the middle of the night facing an intruder. What kind of gated community of the mind do you live in that prevents you from seeing the human desire to protect loved ones?
     
  19. tulla

    tulla Well-Known Member
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    Stalker,
    A response to a few of your points.

    I am opposed to what some of the students did at Middlebury did to make it impossible for Charles Murray to speak there. I know less about the particulars at Berkeley, but from what I read I think it was wrong to prevent the guy--I forget his name for the moment--from speaking.

    About lying: Here I would say Trump is truly different from most other presidents. We can find examples where many previous presidents lied but none to the degree Trump has. The Tweet he sent yesterday in which he asked people to study and presumably follow the example of Gen. Pershing in summarily executing 49 of the 50 terrorists in the Phillipines was based, as I think just about everyone agrees, on an entirely debunked story. What's staggering (to me, at least) is that Trump doesn't seem to care. And there are consequences to passing on such falsehoods.

    About guns: My take on your previous post was that you think people in general do or, if they don't, should have guns and be prepared to use them in an increasingly likely scenario: " keep your AR-15 locked and loaded cause it ain't going to get any better." That looks to me like a clear prediction that some threat is growing and that we need to have guns ready to meet it. What threat is that? You seem to suggest that not having a gun locked and loaded is irresponsible. But lots of Americans--I don't know if it's a majority but it's a large number--really don't want to own a gun, and we're not any less interested in our family's safety. A good case can be made that having a gun in the house actually increases the chances of death or injury. This is anecdotal, but in the last two years I have had three patients seriously injured by gun accidents caused or at least made possible by someone in their families keeping a gun in the house.
     
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  20. njfan47

    njfan47 Well-Known Member
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    Tulla, I guess there's not going to be an example of a front-page or lead story about Clinton's role in the North Korean nuclear buildup. I guess we've pretty much proven the media bias by now, right?
     
  21. tulla

    tulla Well-Known Member
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    I'm not sure what the apparent absence of a front-page story in recent weeks about Bill Clinton's supposed role in the North Korean nuclear program proves. I know there are Trump-supporters (a steadily dwindling group) who are obsessed with the Clintons, but the fact that the obsession isn't more widely shared is not proof of bias. What I have noticed are many acknowledgements in various papers and newscasts that over the last two decades or more U.S. attempts to deter North Korea from developing nuclear weapons have failed, i.e. Trump is not to blame for North Korea's current capacity.

    What do you make of Steve Bannon's comment that the military option against North Korea was always a non-starter? What judgment Trump showed in picking Flynn, Spicer, Priebus, Scaramucci, and Bannon!
     
  22. njfan47

    njfan47 Well-Known Member
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    You can't be serious, considering the context of our conversation. You said last week that you had seen lots of reports about the lack of success of previous administrations in trying to stop North Korea's nuclear program. I asked you for evidence of front-page stories or top TV news stories about either democrat president (Clinton or Obama) having been at least partially responsible. I asked you to post any such stories. I haven't seen any. You can't get blood out of a stone; there aren't any. We know this. The point, however, is that a person who looks at this objectively should question why this is the case.

    You also failed to answer any of the eight outside-the-box points about the Charlottesville debacle. I find it concerning when people simply watch the news and believe what they hear while failing to use any critical thinking skills. Prime examples here are political and life novices LeBron James (who can't even keep harmony within his own team, players like Kyrie Irving can't stand him and ask to be traded) and Kevin Durant. Laughable that Steven A. Smith would play their "speeches" last Thursday.

    Again, the failure of Governor McAuliffe and Michael Signer, the mayor of Charlottesville, to stop the violence should have been a top story. The fact that it wasn't calls into question the motives of the media to provide much less than a comprehensive investigation. I assume you disagree, but I don't know if a reason will be given.
     
  23. tulla

    tulla Well-Known Member
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    nj,

    About to leave for a 10-day trip so this will be very brief.

    I didn't go through websites looking for front page stories about Clinton and Obama (and Bush?) on North Korea. But I do consume what you would call the mainstream media and have been regularly informed that previous administrations failed in attempts to check the development of the NK nuclear weapons program. I don't know anyone who thinks Trump if culpable at all.

    I've also seen and read pieces on the groups in Charlottesville (including antifa) that were there to protest against and sometimes to confront the variety of groups gathered there, ostensibly, to protest the removal of the statue(s). One of the more comprehensive pieces on antifa was on CNN and it didn't seem to pull any punches. I would agree that CNN includes too many speeches by guests who make very predictable comments. I'd prefer to see more actual news. We've got a big problem in this country since large groups get very different, even incompatible "information" from the various media outlets they are consuming.
     
  24. paul from philly

    paul from philly Well-Known Member
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    Have fun on your trip!!! Pax!!
     
  25. njfan47

    njfan47 Well-Known Member
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    Tulla, have a good trip. Where are you going, if I might ask? I don't think the coverage of antifa has been anywhere near adequate. What about any coverage of Governor McAuliffe or Mayor Signer? Virtually non-existent. They both failed big-time. Or did they really (if you know what I mean)?
     
  26. paul from philly

    paul from philly Well-Known Member
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    Terry McAuliffe was my RA at Catholic University in D.C. A bigger brown noser and azzwipe never existed!! Total narcissist!!
     
  27. njfan47

    njfan47 Well-Known Member
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    Wow. Great insight Paul, and not surprising. Will be interesting if he decides to run for president. Should be easy to beat.
     
  28. paul from philly

    paul from philly Well-Known Member
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    Funny, McAuliffe went on to be the DNC Chairman during the Clinton years and Ed Gillespie who also graduated from Catholic University in the early 80s was the RNC Chairman for a while too.
     
  29. tulla

    tulla Well-Known Member
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    Going to Ireland to visit friends and relations. Hoping for decent weather. I know there's lots of talk of Trump there but I'm expecting--or at least hoping--less than here. We all need a break occasionally.
     
  30. njfan47

    njfan47 Well-Known Member
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    Have a great trip. Didn't know you were Irish. I am first generation Irish American. My Mom came over when she was 21 years old.

    You will probably disagree, but on my trips to Ireland, England, and Germany, I came away with the impression that many/most of the people relied on the media to form their opinions. This is always partially true, of course, but it seemed that there was not much of a difference in thought and thought process from person to person.
     

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