Bill to Separate Boundary and Non-Boundary Schools
- Thread starter new2pa
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I agree.... tipped ball & interception on that screen or Taggart was going to the house. 38-35 LS. I think Coleman went off.
I don’t see this getting passed in its current form. WPIAL already came out against it. Transfer rule will be a major point of contention. Also, charter schools will always be in the public classification and that can’t change based on law.
Chief,
Now I'm confused..(not the 1st time!)
If you're eliminating the transfer rule, "essentially opening the door for any transfers for athletic reasons", then why is there a need for separate playoffs??
As Mike Carey was allegedly quoted as saying... "We have a lot of Uncles here at CB West".. District residence becomes merely a hindrance, not an obstruction.
Idk? .. I'm not sure where this is going?
Roy Flynn/Brian Lane
The transfer rule mainly effects private schools because in the public schools an administrator has to sign off and as a group administrators in the public schools will not. They will stick together.
This will be tough on a lot of private schools. In NJ some private schools have forfeited playoff games rather then compete against a team they have no chance of competing with. Should be interesting. Will it include private schools who play in public league schools that are say in the Bicentennial league?,
This will be tough on a lot of private schools. In NJ some private schools have forfeited playoff games rather then compete against a team they have no chance of competing with. Should be interesting. Will it include private schools who play in public league schools that are say in the Bicentennial league?,
I’m afraid all talent will go to non-boundary schools similar to what you see in NJ. I think this will make matters worse, especially considering the removal of the transfer rule.
how Is this going work? I see the regular football season ending the 2nd week of Oct to get all of the playoff games in.
• Public and private/Catholic schools would still compete together in district playoffs, including the WPIAL. It would then be up to each individual district to come up with a system to send one public school and one private/Catholic school to the PIAA playoffs in each classification. Some coaches have already wondered what’s the purpose of this new rule if there isn’t separation in district playoffs?
• Public and private/Catholic schools would still compete together in district playoffs, including the WPIAL. It would then be up to each individual district to come up with a system to send one public school and one private/Catholic school to the PIAA playoffs in each classification. Some coaches have already wondered what’s the purpose of this new rule if there isn’t separation in district playoffs?
Clearly crafted by people that have very little understanding of the PIAA landscape. Are we keeping six classes? So in D11, D3, D2/4/6/10, and D1, how are they crowning a private school champ in 6A - there aren’t private schools! There are only 5 in the entire damn classification - so you’re setting up one playoff that is SJP, LaSalle, Judge, Roman, and Pitt Central Catholic, then one that is everybody else, then have the champs meet?
Or how about 5A? Wood versus Ryan is one playoff bracket entirely? Then the other 94 schools feed in to the other?
If you want to do this, at least think it through. You only have enough schools to really do two divisions of private schools.
Or how about 5A? Wood versus Ryan is one playoff bracket entirely? Then the other 94 schools feed in to the other?
If you want to do this, at least think it through. You only have enough schools to really do two divisions of private schools.
If you actually want to do this, here are your two divisions. Did a rough spin through the enrollment documents for football - I think this is all of the private schools (45 in all sponsoring football)
Big School Non-Public (21 schools - enrollment greater than 220)
LaSalle (D12)
Roman Catholic (D12)
St. Joseph's Prep (D12)
Pittsburgh Central Catholic (D7)
Father Judge (D12)
Archbishop Ryan (D12)
Archbishop Wood (D12)
Erie Cathedral Prep (D10)
Archbishop Carroll (D12)
Cardinal O'Hara (D12)
Monsignor Bonner (D12)
Bishop McDevitt (D3)
Allentown Central Catholic (D11)
Berks Catholic (D3)
Bethlehem Catholic (D11)
Notre Dame Green-Pond (D11)
Lansdale Catholic (D12)
Pope John Paul II (D1)
Scranton Prep (D2)
Mercyhurst Prep (D10)
Lancaster Catholic (D3)
Small School Non-Public (24 schools - enrollment less than 220)
North Catholic (D7)
Neumann Goretti (D12)
Holy Redeemer (D2)
Bishop McDevitt (D12)
Shady Side Academy (D7)
West Catholic (D12)
Seton LaSalle (D7)
Delone Catholic (D3)
York Catholic (D3)
Serra Catholic (D7)
Bishop Carroll (D6)
Vincentian Academy (D7)
Valley Forge Military Academy (D1)
Holy Cross (D2)
Marian Catholic (D11)
Bishop Guilfoyle (D6)
Our Lady of the Sacred Heart (D7)
Bishop McCort (D6)
Bishop Canevin (D7)
Greensburg Central Catholic (D7)
Saint Joseph Academy (D6)
Elk County Catholic (D9)
Nativity BVM (D11)
Imani Christian Academy (D7)
Big School Non-Public (21 schools - enrollment greater than 220)
LaSalle (D12)
Roman Catholic (D12)
St. Joseph's Prep (D12)
Pittsburgh Central Catholic (D7)
Father Judge (D12)
Archbishop Ryan (D12)
Archbishop Wood (D12)
Erie Cathedral Prep (D10)
Archbishop Carroll (D12)
Cardinal O'Hara (D12)
Monsignor Bonner (D12)
Bishop McDevitt (D3)
Allentown Central Catholic (D11)
Berks Catholic (D3)
Bethlehem Catholic (D11)
Notre Dame Green-Pond (D11)
Lansdale Catholic (D12)
Pope John Paul II (D1)
Scranton Prep (D2)
Mercyhurst Prep (D10)
Lancaster Catholic (D3)
Small School Non-Public (24 schools - enrollment less than 220)
North Catholic (D7)
Neumann Goretti (D12)
Holy Redeemer (D2)
Bishop McDevitt (D12)
Shady Side Academy (D7)
West Catholic (D12)
Seton LaSalle (D7)
Delone Catholic (D3)
York Catholic (D3)
Serra Catholic (D7)
Bishop Carroll (D6)
Vincentian Academy (D7)
Valley Forge Military Academy (D1)
Holy Cross (D2)
Marian Catholic (D11)
Bishop Guilfoyle (D6)
Our Lady of the Sacred Heart (D7)
Bishop McCort (D6)
Bishop Canevin (D7)
Greensburg Central Catholic (D7)
Saint Joseph Academy (D6)
Elk County Catholic (D9)
Nativity BVM (D11)
Imani Christian Academy (D7)
Then the pubs will complain about bye weeks. Oh, wait...
I don't think this is what the pubs had in mind when this whole motion was started. It's a case of be careful what you wish for...which, I believe, many of us already knew.
DP addition is about growth, or the appearance of growth regardless of caliber.
Although Patton look....Devon is in state baseball championship. So PCL gets a baseball finalist. So maybe that was the plan all along.
I guess everyone also gets a trophy in this wussed out world managed by wimps in the PIAA in Hburg and at the district level..
Serious Question here.
Why are people against having a separate private and public school state champion?
I feel like it makes sense to just have all private schools compete for one state title and for the public schools to have their own state title. Not sure why there is a big push back to not separate the two.
Why are people against having a separate private and public school state champion?
I feel like it makes sense to just have all private schools compete for one state title and for the public schools to have their own state title. Not sure why there is a big push back to not separate the two.
It centers around the fact that you won't have the best team as state champion and it will be seen as a tie. 2003 is a very good example. Both SJP and North Penn were nationally ranked in the top 10, close in proximity to one another, would have been same classification, and didn't play because SJP couldn't compete in the state playoffs.
That makes sense but in your example, SJP was the best private school and NP was the best public school in the state. Why would you need to have one State Champ when each can say that they were the best in their classification?
Isnt one aspect of the new rule that the last week would then have NP( pub champ) play St Joes ( private champ) to determine the overall champ?
If you stay at six classes, here's what it looks like:
6A - 5 Schools
LaSalle (D12)
Roman Catholic (D12)
St. Joseph's Prep (D12)
Pittsburgh Central Catholic (D7)
Father Judge (D12)
So, one team misses state playoffs and a four team bracket with the rest?
5A - 2 Schools
Archbishop Ryan (D12)
Archbishop Wood (D12)
Single game playoff for the state championship?
4A - 9 Schools
Erie Cathedral Prep (D10)
Archbishop Carroll (D12)
Cardinal O'Hara (D12)
Monsignor Bonner (D12)
Bishop Shanahan (D1)
Bishop McDevitt (D3)
Allentown Central Catholic (D11)
Berks Catholic (D3)
Bethlehem Catholic (D11)
If you eliminate one team, there's an eight team state bracket here
3A - 10 Schools
Notre Dame Green-Pond (D11)
Lansdale Catholic (D12)
Pope John Paul II (D1)
Scranton Prep (D2)
Mercyhurst Prep (D10)
Lancaster Catholic (D3)
North Catholic (D7)
Neumann Goretti (D12)
Holy Redeemer (D2)
Bishop McDevitt (D12)
Bottom two finishers are out, then an eight team bracket?
2A - 7 Schools
Shady Side Academy (D7)
West Catholic (D12)
Seton LaSalle (D7)
Delone Catholic (D3)
York Catholic (D3)
Serra Catholic (D7)
Bishop Carroll (D6)
Top team gets a bye in a seven team bracket?
1A - 13 Schools
Vincentian Academy (D7)
Valley Forge Military Academy (D1)
Holy Cross (D2)
Marian Catholic (D11)
Bishop Guilfoyle (D6)
Our Lady of the Sacred Heart (D7)
Bishop McCort (D6)
Bishop Canevin (D7)
Greensburg Central Catholic (D7)
Saint Joseph Academy (D6)
Elk County Catholic (D9)
Nativity BVM (D11)
Imani Christian Academy (D7)
You've got an eight team bracket here, and the most geographic diversity in any of the classes
This playoff setup would be the only way you'd get the "private vs. public" title game at the end. You can't have district level tournaments in any of the classes because there are not enough teams. Nor can you split things up geographically very easily. Two private school classifications would make significantly more sense, but that rules out a provision of the bill (unless the two champs get to pick which class of public school champs they want to challenge?)
Maybe they decide to go back to 4 classifications in Private and Public. Then all the smaller large schools can go back to crying about how unfair it is that a school with 500 boys has to play North Penn.
The next argument will be how easy the rout to the Tournament of Champions will be for the Private schools. Not enough teams per bracket and almost 70% of the teams will be needed to hold a "Tournament".
The next argument will be how easy the rout to the Tournament of Champions will be for the Private schools. Not enough teams per bracket and almost 70% of the teams will be needed to hold a "Tournament".
If you think they’re going to redraw district lines, I’ve got beach front property in Kansas to sell you. That’s been a nonstarter for years, no matter how many problems it would solve.
Sure it's a non-starter because it's difficult and challenging, a task the powers that be are NOT up to. So we'll continue along in this charade of a playoff system that no one likes.
I’m guessing they go 4 classes in pubs and 2 in private. The 2 private brackets are 16 each with a 4 game playoff. That’s legit. Only real downside is geography ( 1st round game of St Joe’s v. ECP at the home of the higher seed is a long drive for a first round game ). Also , every 6, 5, 4A team makes the playoffs.
Ok, here is the real issue nobody is really speaking on unless I’ve missed it.
When you separate public and private, what is the benefit for the private to be goverened by the PIAA?
Do you know what a private “league” looks like in PA? Not good for the public schools.
InterAc/PCL, regional games with N Jersey power house schools, some national games etc. Oh, and no transfer rules! Public should quit while they are ahead.
On another note, every student should be able to go where they want.
When you separate public and private, what is the benefit for the private to be goverened by the PIAA?
Do you know what a private “league” looks like in PA? Not good for the public schools.
InterAc/PCL, regional games with N Jersey power house schools, some national games etc. Oh, and no transfer rules! Public should quit while they are ahead.
On another note, every student should be able to go where they want.
Can’t we just look at NJ and see the outcome of separating public and private? Even if you reduce the classifications (NJ has a ridiculous amount), I think the outcome remains the same. The majority of the talent would go to privates. 9th-11th graders at public schools would transfer to privates after a good season (with no ramifications). I agree that non-boundary schools have an advantage (duh), but I think our current system is not as bad as the proposal.
How is this different than what Notre Dame (GP) is doing now? Article from yesterday: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mc...tfjctvgy6g5a6ifj3x4-story.html?outputType=amp
Matt Veres recently called Bergen Catholic (N.J.) coach Dave Bell and Bethlehem Catholic’s Jeff Karam.
Veres wanted to use the two openings on Notre Dame-GP’s wrestling schedule with duals against two of the country’s top programs.
Notre Dame-GP, the Colonial League preseason favorite, opens its season Tuesday, December 12, at seven-time defending champion Saucon Valley.
A trip that weekend to the Walsh Jesuit (Ohio) Ironman, plus an appearance later in December at the Beast of the East at the University of Delaware are part of Notre Dame’s most demanding schedule in program history.
“The Crusaders also are expected to have at least two transfers, according to Mike Weilamann of Open Mike, who received confirmation from Hunterdon Central (N.J.) and Phillipsburg coaches that Brett Ungar and Holden Garcia, respectively, will attend Notre Dame-GP starting in the fall.
Ungar was a New Jersey state champion in March at 106 pounds. He is a 83-2 entering his junior season. He was sixth in the state as a freshman.
Garcia, the 130-pound champion at the New Jersey Grade School Wrestling League, will be a freshman.”
As per the current PIAA Transfer Rules: Ungar will be able to wrestle this year during the season but will not qualify for Districts or States. He will be unrestricted for his Senior Year.
Garcia will not be treated as a transfer. Just a new incoming Freshman and qualify for all Tournaments.
Garcia will not be treated as a transfer. Just a new incoming Freshman and qualify for all Tournaments.
Because right now there is only one Prep. This makes it easy for 5 Preps. Again look at N. Jersey.
Prep does it the best, but Erie Cathedral Prep, Archbishop Wood, and Pittsburgh Central Catholic aren’t that many degrees different (PCC doesn’t play the out of area games).
And I get that five schools in Jersey are the only ones that matter. But look west to Ohio too. Public’s and private’s aren’t separated. St. Ed’s has as many titles since 2010 as all public schools have this century in Division I. St. Ignatius and Archbishop Moeller have combined for more titles (20) than all DI public schools in the history of the tournament (16). It’s institutional will, not governing bodies, that matters.
The opposite of Jersey and Ohio is Texas, which also separates public and private. But it’s almost exclusively the public’s that matter and are powerhouses. It’s also one of the states where dipping attendance isn’t an issue. Sure there are other factors at play. But the essence of “my town vs. your town” is ultimately what drives interest.
Rover as that may seem like a reasonable take, I can tell you that I believe the rest of the state has no idea of the real culture of philly. The whole city and immediate surrounding area is the town. So no one cares about "my town vs. your town". Right now the talent is as diffused among the privates and pubs in area as I have seen. I am telling you, if you split pub vs private and at the end of the year the big games are Prep vs PCC or Lasalle on big school and West C vs NG or Beca or something like that on smaller school you are going to see some serious shifting of talent here. Those games will grow to be bigger (at least in philly) than anything you have seen. Philly has talent on talent on talent. Right now you have it diffused pretty well.....just sayin.
Why would Prep-PCC be bigger for the private school title than it already is for the 6A title? Prep essentially has a standing invite to state finals already, why does going all private shift the landscape? And hasn’t LaSalle essentially backed off trying to be SJP in football? Do they suddenly get the stomach for it if private schools are separated? I think that’s where I don’t follow.
Rover,
Where are all the Public/Charter schools in D12? For all intents and purposes they are basically considered open enrollment too. And I, like Stalker would favor going back to 4 classifications.
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The bill specifically says that charter schools are public and therefore would be part of the public classification. Ditto for the open enrollment Philly Publics.