i know you are asking tulla- but i would be surprised if that were NOT happening!!
Any information on st Joes schedule 2024
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I was speaking for Philadelphia. I’m not sure what district PR in but Philadelphia offer free school lunch and breakfast as well.
gotcha- most schools in PA charge $, urban and low-income are often free, some off-set costs w grants during covid- but my guess is most Pa schools now charge $ for lunch and breakfast
Yes, I would be surprised anyone is paying nothing. Not sure what "next to nothing" would be, but if it's under $1,000 I'd be surprised at that too. Some students, including players, are from genuinely poor.
Would be very interesting.
Building a roster from a 40 mile radius inside a major metropolitan area versus fielding a team within geographic school district boundaries is just a little different. Why do non-boundary schools even have a school size classification? Filling your halls with football DNA versus a general HS population DNA is apples to oranges.
all due respect, I've heard that question way too many times. You ever been to Westinghouse High School?
But people aren't fixated on Westinghouse High and we're not making generalizations about it.
the point is, no i have never walked down the street, and walked in the front door at SJP, and he has never walked in the front door of other schools. the topic of this thread is "SJP schedule" so i think it's relevant to be asking questions about SJP- that's the subject!
I get it, SJP is located in a rough / unsafe neighborhood, I get it, the kids work hard and make sacrifices. The limited campus, lack of field is a disadvantage. But, SJP has many other advantages over 99% of the HSs in PA, other than just "open enrollment."
And tulla- not sure if you have seen my other comments- im not a "SJP hater" and I do not think we should "kick them out" of playoffs. Maybe the PIAA should allow schools across the country to "more like" SJP.
2020,
I know you're not an SJP hater. Just not sure what substantial advantages SJP has other than not having boundaries, which I acknowledge is a very big advantage. Greater flexibility with their schedule because of the small number of league games they have to play? OK, but other larger PCL teams have the same advantage and other leagues (like the WPIAL) could choose to loosen things up somewhat so that teams could play more out-of-league games. Having one game a year on ESPN? Yes, but that came after many years of building the program. Not sure if there will be an ESPN game next year, and, as I've said, playing on ESPN comes with risks. Being able to travel to play teams in other parts of the country? That happens, but it's one trip a year that involves anything other than a bus.
Being candid, I'd say SJP is walking a fine line with running the kind of football program it runs. One risk is that the program becomes an entity unto itself, not well integrated with the rest of the school. That's why I've never liked the idea of the football team doing a separate service trip each year, though I don't know the current status of those trips. And I think accepting transfers beyond the start of sophomore year, something that used to be very rare, comes with particular risks. But from what I can see, the people who run the program, especially the coaches, have done a very good job of applying the principles that need to be applied. Certainly, the graduates of the school and the program seem on the whole, to be doing well. Just saw last week, for instance, that Marquez McCray (QB in '16 and'17) got his master's degree.
off the top of my head- advantages of SJP football-
1) scheduling- many districts including 7, allow very little "self-scheduling" i think some have zero- 5A in wpial allows 1 game per year
2) fundraising- sjp has built-in mechanisms for fundraising- I'm not saying they have millions like Alabama- but they have more flexibility than most public schools
3) Recruiting for sports reasons- most public schools, esp in Western PA do not allow that at all, ever- many kids have been ruled inelligible, and coaches suspended
4) Federal law difference- pretty sure being private, they have less rules required- ie Title 9- most HSs have always had to be "careful with football" cuz there is no "girl football." Sounds kinda weird- but i am pretty sure this is a significant impact on football in public schools (open to others' comments).
5) Overall climate / rules of Dist 12- from everything I have read and heard, it really sounds like D12 is much more "flexible" with rules above.
6) Open boundaries
7) Traveling for games- local and out-of-state. That is a "thing" that many Pa HS either are not able to, or may not "allow." Having that option is draw for new kids, and enables the program to be "nationally known."
8) School leadership supporting a "high profile" program- again, many local school boards throughout PA would not "want that even if they could have it."
I appreciate your "candid" comment. Even if trying to keep integrity, it's gotta be tough. I just heard a crazy example- not sure where- but an "early HS graduate" somewhere- recently entered the "NCAA transfer portal" like weeks after starting college. That kinda thing, is gonna happen to sjp w their high profile kids.
1) scheduling- many districts including 7, allow very little "self-scheduling" i think some have zero- 5A in wpial allows 1 game per year
2) fundraising- sjp has built-in mechanisms for fundraising- I'm not saying they have millions like Alabama- but they have more flexibility than most public schools
3) Recruiting for sports reasons- most public schools, esp in Western PA do not allow that at all, ever- many kids have been ruled inelligible, and coaches suspended
4) Federal law difference- pretty sure being private, they have less rules required- ie Title 9- most HSs have always had to be "careful with football" cuz there is no "girl football." Sounds kinda weird- but i am pretty sure this is a significant impact on football in public schools (open to others' comments).
5) Overall climate / rules of Dist 12- from everything I have read and heard, it really sounds like D12 is much more "flexible" with rules above.
6) Open boundaries
7) Traveling for games- local and out-of-state. That is a "thing" that many Pa HS either are not able to, or may not "allow." Having that option is draw for new kids, and enables the program to be "nationally known."
8) School leadership supporting a "high profile" program- again, many local school boards throughout PA would not "want that even if they could have it."
I appreciate your "candid" comment. Even if trying to keep integrity, it's gotta be tough. I just heard a crazy example- not sure where- but an "early HS graduate" somewhere- recently entered the "NCAA transfer portal" like weeks after starting college. That kinda thing, is gonna happen to sjp w their high profile kids.
Yeah I actually been to Westinghouse. They’re doing pretty good in football now, but it’s not comparable to sjp area. Literally a block away from housing projects. They have extra expenses protecting those kids and they still come up short some times. That’s most parents issue with sending their children there. Roman sits closer to center city on a major street so we don’t have those issues. We practice by the art museum. Sjp practice conditions are not normal. Just google what took place in the stands while field hockey was practicing last year. My sons went to Roman but my neighbors boys went to sjp and I can tell you that’s a disadvantage no one talks about.
We could go back and forth on advantages / disadvantages ad infinitum. None of those you've listed is unique to SJP, but I'd agree some of those advantages (e.g., the size of the catchment area and the financial support of the alumni) are greater than those of, say, Roman or LaSalle. (That alumni support doesn't come automatically. It rises and falls.)
Whether SJP's academic demands (which are obviously connected to its academic quality) are an advantage or a disadvantage is a good question. Certainly the school loses good football players every year (usually during or right after freshman year) because they find the academic demands/expectations too great. The academic standards also attract some parents/students.
Something rarely mentioned on here is SJP's status as a Catholic--and Jesuit--school. For over three decades, i.e., before the rise of the football program, SJP has been accepting a fair number of non-Catholic students. They've done that for several reasons, which I'd be happy to list if anyone's interested. But the school, from all I can see, is not less Catholic. For instance, I didn't have to go on an overnight retreat while a student there, but I understand it's now mandatory for all students. The reality is that for some families and kids the Prep's being such a Catholic school puts it off the table as a possible high school. I'm not sure how much of a disadvantage that is, but it's a reality.
Being in such close proximity I understand most of what you’re saying. Sounds like most would want SJP’s problems if they could have star talent at their schools or the advantage they have in football outweighs any disadvantage.
I don't know much about St. Frances. The little I know suggests it has a very different history, a very different academic profile, and a very different mix of students compared to SJP. All the other Catholic schools in Baltimore decided some years ago to stop playing St. Frances. Haven't heard anything remotely similar about the other PCL schools and SJP. (The Jesuit school in Baltimore is Loyola Blakefield, which is in a fairly wealthy area of the city. )
My general sense is that there are significant differences from area to area along the east coast.
The same thing that keeps SFA dominant is the exact same thing that keeps SJP - they have open access to a great pool of talent that 99% of boundary schools do not have. It doesn't matter if they don't have a practice field or have to travel a few miles for a game field. They know walking from the locker room down to the game field, they have more talent on the bench then the majority of the starters they will face that night.
The reason SFA was barred from playing the other MIAA schools was Biff upped the ante. He began taking kids from all over and not just Baltimore. You had kids from Delaware, Eastern Shore, NOVA, etc. Sound familiar?
Speaking of SJP’s academic demands. Is there any truth to the rumor that QB Samaj Jones immediately dropped out of Prep after the football season and got his GED?
He's at Cincinnati and they have him listed on their roster already as an early enrollee.
Ahhh, I see. So if that rumor is true, he didn’t qualify to graduate from Prep early and dropped out and got his GED so he can enroll early at Cincinnati. I looked at the roster at the sjprep.org website and he is the only player without a graduating year by his name.
Side note: they eliminated everyone’s hometown/state from the website too.
Tulla can most likely shed some light on this, but I thought SJP didn’t allow their students to graduate early? For example, Trotter/McCord/Harrison etc never did and supposedly Heard and another DL transferred out due to the inability to graduate early. Maybe the administration has changed their stance on this due to the increased number of athletes enrolling early in college? I’m simply speculating, I’m sure Tulla or any of the other SJP followers have better insight than I do.
McCord definitely did enroll early. I can’t remember if any others did? Heard transfered in. Therefore, wasn’t going to be able to meet the SJP requirements to enroll early so left.
I’m not hating on Jones. He cleverly found a loophole in the system, if true.
No way he got his GED. He played his last game in Dec. most prep high profile athletes are in summer school in preparation of leaving early every year.
You're right. McCord, Harrison, and the Trotters left in January. My understanding is they all met the qualifications to graduate from SJP. Heard and James were told at the end of their junior year that they would not qualify to graduate from SJP if they left early (because they wouldn't have enough SJP credits if they left early), so they chose to attend a kind of charter school in Camden and play for Camden High in their senior year.
I wondered about Jones a couple of times this year. He didn't play against St. Peter's, but there was no indication of injury and he didn't start against CBS (state semi-final) even though he came into the game later and seemed physically just fine. I know nothing about the reasons , but it seemed strange.
I don't like kids leaving high school early. It send the wrong message to the kids and isn't, usually, in their long-term interest.
Looked at SFA website: very different history, very different academic program, and very different mix of students. SJP students have come from a wide geographic area for many decades. In my class over 50 years ago we had students (not football players) from Trenton and Reading. My sense is that SFA does not draw from nearly as wide a geographic area, except perhaps for football players. No?
Cincinnati coach saying and I’m paraphrasing, “we did not anticipate getting Jones in early but he did things he had to do to get here early and we are happy to have him.”
They don’t consider it graduating earlier but having the required classes in order to qualify for graduation by December. As of late I know that Trotters left early but came back to walk and prom. Just look at their summer school it’s nothing but football players there.
Just because Jones isn’t allowed to graduate from SJP early doesn’t mean he can’t enroll early. He just has to do what he did )drop out of school) and be comfortable with not getting a diploma from SJP.
RCH- I understand what this means, but I've never heard of "summer school for HS football." I'm pretty sure this qualifies as another "advantage for SJP football." Most HSs in PA have prob NEVER had a single 12th grade kid "leave in January" to go to college, and start FB practices. Some HSs would not ALLOW it and most would not "facilitate it."
I thought lots of public high schools offered summer courses, either to help students improve their performance in a particular course or to give them a head start or more time to do this or that during the regular school year. I took a summer course at my local public school a very long time ago when a student at SJP.
Bucks- yes that is also an option- I'm just sayin not "common" imo for the "average high school" to do this to "graduate early for sports reasons." Some "school leaders" just don't have experience doing it, and again, some may not allow it.
"summer school" still exists, but not like it did 20-30 years ago. Often done "online" and just not as often. Main reason it's not as common for public schools for "fail kids" either in a course, on for a grade level- therefore not as many kids taking "summer school" classes. Also- staffing- schools would have hard time finding more teachers to teach these.
"summer school" still exists, but not like it did 20-30 years ago. Often done "online" and just not as often. Main reason it's not as common for public schools for "fail kids" either in a course, on for a grade level- therefore not as many kids taking "summer school" classes. Also- staffing- schools would have hard time finding more teachers to teach these.
It’s not only for football players. Summer school is offered for students. Sjp is not the only hs sending student athletes to school early but in order to do so those players must make those credits up some where. It’s no different than students who have co-op (if that’s what it’s called currently) , where they work their final semester of high school.
There’s plenty enrollees that practiced with bowl teams.
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It’s not SJP that’s driving the graduate early/summer credits thing, that is big college programs putting pressure on kids.
It’s ramped up lately, but been going on for years. When Brendan Beal (five star recruit) caused all that fuss in 2007 by transferring to Liberty from Jersey, it’s because his high school wouldn’t allow him to graduate early, which Urban Meyer wanted him to do so he could enroll at Florida. He went to Liberty because they had block scheduling, so he could take all of his remaining required courses in the fall (block scheduling means year long courses are taken in one semester with double the class time) and he’d have his credits to leave in January.
As block scheduling has become the norm state/nationwide, you’re seeing more kids able to graduate early because you can core academic classes in a way you can’t with full year courses. Kids can take both alg 2 and pre-calc in the same year, for example, which gets you two of the three math credits you need to graduate/gets you in track for calc if its not credits you’re worried about.
It’s ramped up lately, but been going on for years. When Brendan Beal (five star recruit) caused all that fuss in 2007 by transferring to Liberty from Jersey, it’s because his high school wouldn’t allow him to graduate early, which Urban Meyer wanted him to do so he could enroll at Florida. He went to Liberty because they had block scheduling, so he could take all of his remaining required courses in the fall (block scheduling means year long courses are taken in one semester with double the class time) and he’d have his credits to leave in January.
As block scheduling has become the norm state/nationwide, you’re seeing more kids able to graduate early because you can core academic classes in a way you can’t with full year courses. Kids can take both alg 2 and pre-calc in the same year, for example, which gets you two of the three math credits you need to graduate/gets you in track for calc if its not credits you’re worried about.
I'm not comparing schools from an academic perspective. SFA is not known for academic rigor. I'm comparing football programs and they seem to have many of the same "advantages" and "disadvantages." Yet, they seem produce similar results - no?
SFA house students. You think sjp have complaints now. Could you imagine them housing athletes lol
I'd love to see a detailed report on what SFA, SJP, Bishop Gorman, St. Edward's, maybe Bergen Catholic, STA and / or one of the other very successful private school programs in FL (Chaminade?), and perhaps Mater Dei and / or Bosco in CA have in common and what they don't have in common. My hunch is that we'd find some important and maybe unexpected differences at least partly related to the particular histories, demographics, and cultures (including football cultures) of the different areas where the schools are located. I'm curious, for instance, why there are so many quite strong programs in North Jersey and so few in New York (and I don't just mean NYC).
So here's what I can tell you on St. Edward. It opened in 1950, and they were not a very good football program for most of their history. St. Ignatius, also in Cleveland, is their archrival and dominated the football between the in the '80s, '90s, and '00s. They won nine state titles between 1988-2001, also won in 2008 and 2011. St. Ed's was a .500ish program for most of their history, with a stretch in the mid 70s and early 80s where they were pretty good.
In 2009, St. Ed's fired their second straight coach for poor performance. From my understanding, there was a significant booster backing at St. Ed's to support the football program and bring it in line with other sports at the school (wrestling and ice hockey are national powers, for instance). One thing to know about Cleveland is that it's a sneaky high wealth city, where a lot of the richest people and power brokers in town are businessmen who either went to St. Ignatius or St. Edward. There's kind of a dick measuring contest on golf courses about the two programs success in various sports, and their athletics programs both reap the financial benefits of that.
St. Edward brought in Rick Finotti, who was one of the most well respected defensive coordinators in northeastern Ohio to make them a legitimate football power. He took Ed's to the next level as a football program - particularly changed them on the offensive line, where Ed's began putting out a front five that was consistently bigger than every college line in state save for the Buckeyes. They got a couple transfers and made themselves the destination in Cleveland for elite football players, particularly once Chuck Kyle retired at St. Ignatius. That frankly, steered a lot of kids to St. Ed's - it's my understanding that Ed's churns out significant scholarship money for athletes, but that mostly comes from me knowing people on the wrestling staff well, and when Iggy was less of a slam dunk during the transition, Ed's got really aggressive courting incoming freshmen. Finotti went 62-15 in his stretch at Ed's and won two state titles, then got hired by Jim Harbaugh at Michigan to be on his support staff. When Finotti left, they hired Tom Lombardo away from Highland, where he'd be to a handful of state final fours, and also had won a state championship as the head coach at Lake Catholic. He's taken them to the stratosphere, where they won Division I pretty much every year, put 10-15 guys into FBS programs, and play non-conference games all over the country.
St. Ed's is a high academic school, located in the city limits of Cleveland, but in the Lakewood neighborhood, which is a really nice part of the city. They've got their own football field, but otherwise they have a lot of DNA similarities to SJP.
Obviously it is one of the great historical wrestling powers - which started in the late '70s when Howard Ferguson took over as head coach of the program. Ferguson was a real estate mogul in Cleveland who loved wrestling and used his millions of dollars to build his own facility on his property for kids to train and completely financially backed the St. Edward program. Before he was at St. Edward, he ran the major community programs in west Cleveland (West Lake Shore wrestling) and he got all of his best youth kids to come join him at St. Ed's. He won 11 consecutive state titles, and was the #1 team in the country seven times, before dying of a heart attack in 1989, and left a good chunk of his estate to the wrestling program. Interestingly, he was succeeded as the St. Edward head coach by his wrestling manager, Greg Urbas, who was a math teacher at the school and close friend of Ferguson's who never wrestled a day in his life. Urbas, about the nicest man in history, ran the administrative side of the program, and hired various St. Edward alumns with decorated college careers as his assistants to teach technique and the wrestling side of things, including current head coach John Heffernan, who was a multi-time All American at Iowa.
In the 34 years since Ferguson's death, they've won 26 state championships (getting briefly passed by Walsh Jesuit in Akron during the early-mid '90s following Ferguson's death before retaking power) and have been the #1 team in the country four times (in an era dominated by boarding schools Blair Academy and Wyoming Seminary as the top teams nationally). Most impressively, St. Edward had at least one alumni place at the NCAA tournament every year from 1981 to 2018, an absurd streak that will never be broken.
Thanks very much, Rover. Very illuminating.
The information you've provided makes St. Edward's history and situation very different from St. Frances's. I remember that 10-15 years ago--maybe longer--St. Edward's and St. Ignatius were very close, with St. Ignatius having a slight edge. So St. Edward's didn't emerge as a major program in the sudden way St. Frances did. I haven't been following Ohio football nearly as closely as you have, but my sense is that St. Edward's hasn't dominated public school teams, at least in the state playoffs, as SJP has done in several ('18, '19, '20, '22, and '23) recent years. Is that an indication that hs football is generally a fair bit stronger in OH than in PA?
