2024 6A State Title PCC vs SJP
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they probably live closer to prep than half the kids at pcc do to their school. 50+ school districts for central catholic. Nj is a 15min drive from prep
Very excited for this game. I think it will be closer than this forum thinks. It may come down to how well Centrals oline holds up. They have been solid this year but they now face their biggest challenge.
Some facts surrounding this game: SJP has an all-time record of 7-3 against WPIAL opponents. Only losses were in 2004 to Central Catholic, 2017 to Pine Richland, and 2021 to Mt. Lebanon.
Central Catholic is looking for their 5th state title and first since 2015.
Central averages 42 points per game, and 15 points against
Some facts surrounding this game: SJP has an all-time record of 7-3 against WPIAL opponents. Only losses were in 2004 to Central Catholic, 2017 to Pine Richland, and 2021 to Mt. Lebanon.
Central Catholic is looking for their 5th state title and first since 2015.
Central averages 42 points per game, and 15 points against
This is an yet another comment from someone who doesn't get the geography of the Philly area, the history of SJP, or the environment of hs football in the area. About the latter: SJP--unlike PCC--has many other Catholic schools to compete with for students/players--two of them will also be at Cumberland Valley competing for state championships, and then there is LaSalle (perhaps the second best team in the state). There are also the six InterAc schools, one of which (Malvern, also a Catholic school) has a very ambitious football program. Then there is IMHOTEP. As far as I know, PCC doesn't have nearly as much competition for students and players. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
And about geography: it's true that you can get from the Prep to Jersey in 15 minutes or even less, but it's also true that some students/players travel for an hour or more from parts of both Jersey and PA to attend the Prep. Here's some general information about transportation to and from the Prep: https://www.sjprep.org/student-life/transportation Note that the average cost for the bus for last year was over $2,000. My point is that while being able to draw students from the whole Philly area is an obvious advantage, just about all the students who attend the Prep pass many high schools and go through many school districts much closer to home. That means going to the Prep--especially if you are involved in a very demanding co-curricular (such as football)--requires more time and effort, more commitment and sacrifice, than going to just about any other high school. The challenge to the school is to make it worth the time and effort.
1. Wonder why District 1 football is generally seen as down currently?
2. Correct, but it's all non-boundary schools that have a similar opportunity to pull from a boundaryless area (schools in dense population areas (Philadelphia, Harrisburg, Pittsburgh) just reap the benefits even more) . This is why there should be separate playoff brackets for non-boundary and boundary.
Tulla- PCC "competes for kids" against many many good public schools. Approximately 100 high school programs, within about a 20 mile radius. So, to say that "PCC doesn't have nearly as much competition for students and players" is totally inaccurate.
And the "post" from the PCC Flemming guy? He's kinda a "bitter ex-PCC guy" so I would not pay much attention to his weird comments.
viking- I hope that this is close but I just do not think that PCC defense can hold up. They were getting gashed against Harrisburg. PCC plays too many bad opponents during the year- not really their fault.
Tulla was referring to other private schools. There would be too many public schools to count around Phila.that also compete for players to stay at their school.
I think 2020's point is that the public school programs in and around Pittsburgh provide significantly more competition in recruiting than the ones around Philly. Sure, SJP competes with Lower Merion, Haverford, Mount Laurel, Conestoga, Eastern Regional, etc. for players, but are you really going stay to go 2-8 at Lower Merion when all of the kids in your class who are any good are going to PCL or Inter-Ac schools?
It's why you've seen a school like Faith Christian shoot past Bethlehem Catholic and Notre Dame in wrestling. Becahi/ND are in a way more fertile recruiting base, but it's also way more attractive to stay at the public schools around them, whereas if I live in D1, unless I'm at Council Rock South, why wouldn't I go be on the best team in the state rather than whatever my school has to offer? In football, it's even flipped - you have way more players in and around Philadelphia, with way fewer public school programs that are competitive with SJP (read: none), so if my kid is any good, the only rational choice is to go play for one of the best teams in the country. If i can't hack it, I can always come home and be the best kid on an awful team, or switch to a different PCL school that's a rung down the ladder, but better than what I'm leaving.
That's not SJP's fault, but it's definitely helped.
Rover,
100% correct. Look at Bonner, a block away from Upper Darby High. That boundary school isn't much interested in having a winning football program, so where do the kids that want to compete go, Bonner. That area is heavily populated, so no need to recruit that much. Bonner is also close to some Philly public schools that don't field good football teams, so I'm guessing those athletes find their way to Bonner. Abington is another mystery, apparently their administration isn't interested in a winning football program, so those kids who want to compete end up at LaSalle, or some other non-boundary school, or left to play at Abington with sub-par coaching. District 1 football is on a 10 plus year decline, mainly due to lack of interest from the school administrations in winning.
100% correct. Look at Bonner, a block away from Upper Darby High. That boundary school isn't much interested in having a winning football program, so where do the kids that want to compete go, Bonner. That area is heavily populated, so no need to recruit that much. Bonner is also close to some Philly public schools that don't field good football teams, so I'm guessing those athletes find their way to Bonner. Abington is another mystery, apparently their administration isn't interested in a winning football program, so those kids who want to compete end up at LaSalle, or some other non-boundary school, or left to play at Abington with sub-par coaching. District 1 football is on a 10 plus year decline, mainly due to lack of interest from the school administrations in winning.
I agree ,but at LaSalle they would have to pass their entrance requirements as well as pay substantial tuition. Tuition at all PCL schools is not inexpensive. Travel is another factor .
Not sure it's a lack of interest from school administrations in winning, at least not across the board (definitely not at the perennial top 10 or so squads). Losing a few top 10 players per roster to non-boundary schools has a massive impact on SE PA boundary schools that other areas of the state do not experience.
The fact is they are from New Jersey. I understand the geography ! They are not Pa kids !
Hard arguing the topic as the PIAA says they're good to go. But, the fact that they are from out-of-state is a hard point to get past when it's a playoff to determine the State Championship of Pennsylvania.
Imagine that … having choice to create opportunities … yes, coaching does make a difference … and the PCL has always handled their business (open boundaries) this way … Prep has had students from NJ for longer than most schools have been active, over 80 years, it’s a radius thing … and let’s not forget, PCL was courted heavily to be in PIAA to create the most competitive field for the state
This is an interesting conversation to have (for the millionth time) but the way I see it is that PCC was the best team in the worst WPIAL 6A ever. Probably worst large school since before NA made its runs in 2010-2012, but I really don’t remember much before that.
SJP may not be McCord-level but they still are really talented at all positions and will again have the coaching advantage. And the kids know how to win at the highest level.
Gotta go with the Hawks by a decent margin. Probably enough to make PCC fans think they had a chance, but for SJP fans to not really sweat.
SJP may not be McCord-level but they still are really talented at all positions and will again have the coaching advantage. And the kids know how to win at the highest level.
Gotta go with the Hawks by a decent margin. Probably enough to make PCC fans think they had a chance, but for SJP fans to not really sweat.
I'm not sure there is a single case of "a few top 10 players" from the same school district who've ever gone to SJP. Maybe there are cases where it's true if you include all the other Catholic/private schools too, but then you get into the question of whether kids "belong" to particular school districts--meaning that when some of them decide to go to a Catholic/private school they're being unfairly poached or stolen. Two things that have made a difference have been the closing of lots of Catholic elementary schools--which means that, unlike before the last couple of decades, many Catholic kids don't have a Catholic elementary school to go to and thus are enrolled in public ones--and the fact that Catholic high schools, whether West Catholic or LaSalle or SJP, now accept lots of non-Catholic students--and not just ones who are good at sport A or B.
One other thing that hasn't been mentioned: race. I saw the photo of the seven SJP players who just signed letters of intent to big-time schools: OSU, PSU, Notre Dame, Syracuse, and Temple. Six of the seven are Black. SJP has increased its number of Black students over many decades, but if you look at a team photo from 20 or even 10 years ago, you won't see as many Black players as you see today. Same for all the other PCL schools (and the InterAc schools), though to varying degrees. In the PCL cases, that's partly because the schools have been admitting non-Catholic students, and it's a fact that the proportion of Blacks in the Philly area--and across the country--who are Catholics is much lower than the proportion of Whites who are. And my strong sense is that the proportion of White kids who choose to play high school football is a lot less than it used to be. No doubt this is truer in some regions than in others. If I'm wrong, I'm happy to be corrected. If I'm correct, this means that schools that are overwhelmingly White, e.g. many in District One, are simply having a hard time getting enough kids who are serious about playing the game to come out and make the commitment. And it may well be that more Black kids, looking at who's playing in the NFL and in major college football, decide to make more of a commitment to football. And which high schools do they think will most help make that happen? And which high schools are most likely to help them succeed in life if something (e.g., an injury, a body that doesn't grow as much as they expected, etc.) prevents them from playing much football beyond high school?
I know this is actually quite a complicated area, but maybe it helps to put some things on the table.
Never said there were; again, this is non-boundary vs boundary, not the world against SJP or Suburbs vs Philly. District 1 boundary schools continually lose a few top 10 players to the host of non-boundary schools in the area.
Kids are free to chose whatever non-boundary school they choose. Nothing about being unfairly poached or stolen is considered, just separate the playoff brackets.
Are you saying PCL teams aren't full rosters of Catholic kids? lol. The non-boundary schools are free to take whomever, just separate the playoff brackets.
I'm not connecting with your point here: Are you saying that certain demographics wouldn't play for SJP if the PIAA separated the playoff brackets? Kids from all walks of life already play for InterAc schools and they don't even have playoffs.
I still tend to think SJP is the albatross in this situation (maybe LaSalle will enter in similar territory with their new coach). But, after watching that Lampeter-Bonner game, I felt Lamp had a legitimate chance. It didn’t feel like Bonner was way better than them. I still tend to think the true archdiocesan schools (Bonner, Roman, Wood, Egan, etc) aren’t a huge issue; they have way less resources than the SJP and LaSalle’s of the world. Just my two cents.
All goes back to Open Enrollment which had to be done to keep schools open. Bonner was on the verge of closing, now state champs. Comparing todays top PCL teams the past is laughable. LaSalle and SJP were always open enrollment where every other PCL team was boundary I believe. Natural flow of things currently make the top teams amazing and rest average to below average. I wonder if Bonner and WC or Bonner and COH can both be dominant at same time. Are there enough kids to properly fill PCL to get to the Roman and Bonner level. Keeping SJP and LaSalle at level by themselves.
It IS very complicated and there are a lot of factors in play (I'm talking specifically District 1) in terms of football recruiting, the apparent drop in District 1 success at the state level, etc... Most of these points I've brought up before:
1. To Rover's point of students choosing privates because of lack of support / success at their local public school, that is certainly the case in some schools and certainly not in others. Central Bucks has a lot of support from administration, facilities and active parent clubs with lots of $$ to spend. They're still going to lose kids to privates. If you're a very good player at the middle school level, you'll be recruited by Wood, LaSalle, GA, LC, and possibly others like Penn Charter. There's a much bigger chance that player and his family find a "fit" at one of those schools then if they have only one other option.
2. Chicken or the egg? If it's the lack of success that is driving players from public schools, then continuing to lose top players makes it much harder to have the success that might then keep them from choosing privates. But how do you have that success without keeping more of those players? (See the decline of Wood and the rise of CB South, with two of their top players transferring from Wood.)
3. Would the perception of D1 be different if we didn't have the unique overlap of D12 and the InterAc? There are 13 private schools playing football in D1, but 11 of them are not PIAA district 1 schools. That situation is unique to D1.
4. CB West, two years ago, had 7 players from their geographical area start games for LaSalle. That West team made the district final. There were also students playing at GA, LC and others. When you're losing players from football because of demographic changes, one sport specialization, and press from CTE, etc... it's hard to compete at the highest levels with that many players not staying at West. Last year's team that started 12-0 could have added multiple Division 1 athletes if they kept everyone... would a team like that be able to compete with SJP? Maybe not, but it's probably competitive with everyone else in the PCL, or the state for that matter. And it's not just the stars, there are plenty of kids that go to places like LaSalle that are mainly scout team / program guys that are desperately needed in the public school programs.
5. I don't think any of these kids "belong" to the public schools, this is just an explanation of the situation in D1 and why you don't see the perennial powers in a position to compete for state championships anymore. The PCL powers have gotten stronger in a time when the football talent pool has already shrunk. If you're a Pittsburgh area power, you need to keep PCC from recruiting your guys away. If you're in a collar county of Philly, you're fighting against 5-6 schools for your best guys.
What is PCC missing that they can't make it more competitive? I know that part of the problem is that these teams are covered almost entirely by local reporters who are "homers", but I see elite LBs, elite skill, an offensive line that has been touted as maybe the best in PA, a senior QB who seems to be playing very well... is it just local hype? Are they not deep enough? I understand that the 6A competition was down this year, but trying to just look at the individual pieces, it looks like a very talented team. And with SJP not having the two Ohio State commits playing, still no chance?
I was trying to suggest there are trends--some big ones such as the decline in football participation in certain populations and the fact that non-Catholic students are now welcome at Catholic schools--that provide a context to the discussion. Some--not you--focus on the fact that SJP recruits or on the notion that SJP and other Catholic/private schools poach students who belong to public school districts.
Some of the trends, such as the practice of many colleges to make "offers" to 13-14 year olds, I don't like at all. Some are actually quite harmful because they give kids illusions at an age when they're very vulnerable to illusions. But these trends are real and are part of the reason kids and their families are making the choices they're making.
I'm also skeptical that simply separating boundary and non-boundary schools in the playoffs will have the effect at least some people think it will have, e.g. big crowds to see an epic game between Harrisburg and Downingtown West.
This final will be more competitive than the last 2 years. Centrals offense goes fast, so fast in fact that refs and the chain crew can’t keep up. They are able to put up massive amounts of points against WPIAL teams. However against this SJP defense they likely won’t get any sort of rhythm going. I think it will be a long night for them
On the other side of the ball, I think central will have a hard time stopping the run. They’ve had trouble sometimes against wpial teams. SJP has a massive line and a great running back. So in the end, I think SJP wins comfortably
The issues raised in this thread are not unique to PA.
Check the participants in this year's Open Division Championship Game out here in sunny California and then the teams that have played in the contest since its inception in 2013:
highschoolfootballamerica.com
Eight games have been played (Covid year was cancelled) with 12 private and 4 publics playing (meaning 4 years saw private versus private and 4 years it was private versus public).
All 8 winners were private (Mater Dei - 4; St. John Bosco - 3; De La Salle - 1).
This year (ninth game) features national number one Mater Dei and national number 28 De La Salle.
Mater Dei is aiming for its fifth "National Championship" with De La Salle claiming 12 of them.
This is also a game that seems to be Northern California versus Southern California but it is not an exact science and hasn't been a total split every year.
PS This is the "best of the best" playing each other out here (see below):
The California Interscholastic Federation created an Open Division for the state playoffs, where the top teams, regardless of Division, face off for the undisputed state crown. In some states it's difficult to determine the best overall team, given that many top-ranked squads compete in different divisions.
(Every year there are a some publics that look to make a run for it - being one of the two teams selected or winning if they do make it - but they can't quite get over the hump.)
Check the participants in this year's Open Division Championship Game out here in sunny California and then the teams that have played in the contest since its inception in 2013:
Mater Dei to square-off with De La Salle for California Open Division high school football championship
Southern California's Mater Dei will be able to clinch its fifth High School Football America national championship against De La Salle, a team that owns
highschoolfootballamerica.com
Eight games have been played (Covid year was cancelled) with 12 private and 4 publics playing (meaning 4 years saw private versus private and 4 years it was private versus public).
All 8 winners were private (Mater Dei - 4; St. John Bosco - 3; De La Salle - 1).
This year (ninth game) features national number one Mater Dei and national number 28 De La Salle.
Mater Dei is aiming for its fifth "National Championship" with De La Salle claiming 12 of them.
This is also a game that seems to be Northern California versus Southern California but it is not an exact science and hasn't been a total split every year.
PS This is the "best of the best" playing each other out here (see below):
The California Interscholastic Federation created an Open Division for the state playoffs, where the top teams, regardless of Division, face off for the undisputed state crown. In some states it's difficult to determine the best overall team, given that many top-ranked squads compete in different divisions.
(Every year there are a some publics that look to make a run for it - being one of the two teams selected or winning if they do make it - but they can't quite get over the hump.)
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The issues raised in this thread are not unique to PA.
Check the participants and winners in California's Open Division Championship Game since its inception in 2013 (and the teams that have played in the game each year):
Mater Dei to square-off with De La Salle for California Open Division high school football championship
Southern California's Mater Dei will be able to clinch its fifth High School Football America national championship against De La Salle, a team that owns
Eight games (Covid year cancelled) with 12 private and 4 publics playing (meaning 4 years was private versus private and 4 years was private versus public).
All 8 winners were private (
In Illinois, private schools outscored public 283-76 in football state title games
The Illinois state championship football games that pitted public schools against private were lopsided, as the private schools cruised, 283-76.
www.usatodayhss.com
You make good points. This is NOT complicated except by those bringing the issue up repeatedly with clear bias. It is boundary vs non-boundary as you stated.
Anything beyond that is superfluous, in excess, unnecessary, in essential, etc, etc.
It does not need nuanced. Jeez!
I guess I don’t have any substantial reason except that this PCC doesn’t seem “special”. Good to great team and players. If this were last year, I’d say different but they choked.
But maybe that’s the key to winning - just play as a team …
I’ll say this - I don’t think on O they have that dude who will touch ball 20-30+ times that can carry the team. QB and RB isn’t it IMO. Maybe Gompers, but he’s a WR.
Could be wrong. We’ll see I guess.
But maybe that’s the key to winning - just play as a team …
I’ll say this - I don’t think on O they have that dude who will touch ball 20-30+ times that can carry the team. QB and RB isn’t it IMO. Maybe Gompers, but he’s a WR.
Could be wrong. We’ll see I guess.
Correct, the situation does not need to be clouded by all of the ancillary information/arguments. Simple: just separate the non-boundary and boundary playoff brackets.
wow- bucks- these comments are very interesting- but, the world is much different in Western PA- PCC does not "recruit kids away." If they did, it would be reported, and the coaches at PCC would get suspended.
To be clear, not all of them have to be recruited. Some choose to go there without a big recruiting push. It’s hard for D1 to enforce recruiting taking place with their district by D12 coaches, or the InterAC. InterAC openly recruits with brochures, etc… because they’re not burdened by PIAA rules. D12 has to be more subtle, at least publicly.
There does seem to be a lot of movement between public schools in the Pittsburgh area, or maybe I just hear about high profile examples?
sammy- i think the process is called an analogy?
Ohio State : Pitt :: SJP : PCC
You "scratch the surface" at PCC, not great talent, imo. I'm pretty sure there are 3s at SJP better than a few PCC 1s.
im gonna start a new thread
So you’re saying the 8th grader I work with who got sideline passes for LaSalle-SJP (regular season) as a guest of the coaching staff, had his school shadow visit day arranged by the head coach with full meetings with the head coach and his future position coach about their plan for him and how he fits into their defense and “how he goes D1” wouldn’t happen at PCC?
Because that’s how Brett Gordon is rolling now.
It got too antagonistic and i fell into it. So i had to get away. However, PCC is back in the final so i wanted to discuss.
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