I am fully aware that this thread will cause many to attack and characterize me as a poor sport or whiner and that is totally fine. I very rarely read or post anymore for the following reasons. Before the inclusion of the private catholic schools in the PIAA there used to be a vitality to the board from people that rooted for their home team. That is pretty much dissipated because at the beginning of the year we already pretty much know who is going to be the eastern representative in the state finals. The Prep, Wood, Imhotep have all playing within the rules become the teams that many expect to make it year after year. Of course many will say it's due to superior coaching and training techniques which is fine, I don't think good coaches at schools that used to compete in the state playoffs have become bad coaches but that is not the point of this thread. Open enrollment has changed for many schools the dream of winning a state title. The goal now is to win your league and a district title and that is usually the end of the road. Because waiting for you is a fresh loaded charter or catholic school with kids from multiple states and districts ready to pounce. Going into the season realizing no matter how well your team plays and comes together that your school using only kids from your district simply can't compete with the all star teams many are assembling at the power schools. So go ahead let me have it call me names, I'm simply observing the way things are. Save me the public schools have to work harder bull shit, better players win titles. Making it easy to get those players with open enrollment benefits the power programs. Don't want to hear the facilities argument either, give me all star level players from md. nj. de. and pa. and I'll be happy to practice on a cow pasture. So enjoy the games tonight but realize there are very few public school teams, with a few exceptions that have any chance of getting to Hershey.
The Good Old Days....
- Thread starter Delcofootballguy
- Start date
You may actually be the first person I've seen posting who understands that this not an issue of recruiting but an advantage that open enrollment allows. The problem with the logic is you say these schools all could have kids from multiple districts or states and the truth is that not all open enrollment schools can. Any public school that is not a special enrollment school in Philadelphia is open enrollment. That means that from Southern to West Philly to Washington you have the potential there for students from across the city to attend your school.
As for other catholic schools across the state, do they also have open enrollment? If so, why is this now a problem.
I would disagree that your local towns have no shot. I think that North Allegheny, South Fayette, Central Dauphin and Clairton all teams who have one a championship since the inclusion of D12 might disagree.
As for other catholic schools across the state, do they also have open enrollment? If so, why is this now a problem.
I would disagree that your local towns have no shot. I think that North Allegheny, South Fayette, Central Dauphin and Clairton all teams who have one a championship since the inclusion of D12 might disagree.
How about some facts?
With respect to AAAA since the PCL entered the PIAA the following has happened:
- In 2008 LaSalle lost to Washington in the D12 final
- In 2009 LaSalle won the state championship.
- In 2010 and 2011--I forget what happened in which year--LaSalle lost to North Allegheny in the state final and to North Penn in the state semifinal
- In 2012 LaSalle lost to Coatsville in the state semifinal
- In 2013 SJP won the state championship after close wins against Frankford and Neshaminy and a very competitive game against Parkland.
- In 2014 SJP won the state championship after very close wins against Parkland and PR.
As for the "multi-state" reference, I'm still waiting for anyone to identify a PCL team that had a player from Maryland or for the identity of more than two players in the last ten years who have come from Delaware. SJP has always had students from Jersey. They would leave the PIAA if there's was a ban on players from outside PA.
Is the ability to take students from larger geographical areas an advantage? Yes, and it's a big one. Does it outweigh the challenges all PCL teams face--and the somewhat different challenges each PCL team faces? Probably (though not, I think, in AA). Do "regular" public schools have a chance to win a state championship? Look at the facts.
Agree with Tulla whole heartedly!! The four state, 21 county argument is old and as Tulla referenced, totally untrue. Open enrollment is a big advantage but also, the caliber of players the PCL, privates and charters get are not all future D1 players. Don't just throw away the coaching argument either. Using Drew Gordon as an example, he was like nuclear power compared to electricity.
Thanks Tulla, I didn't realize La Salle lost that many times!!
Thanks Tulla, I didn't realize La Salle lost that many times!!
You both make very valid points but my point is made. LaSalle, Prep and Wood and Imhotep are always in the mix. And they're in the mix for a reason. Every now and then there will be a public school with just the right mix that can make a run but it varies from year to year who that might be. Not with charters and catholic schools, we know who it is going to be every year.
The advantage of open enrollment schools isn’t that they get all the best kids or that they can be these crazy transfer mills. The advantage is, the entire roster is a self selected population. Kids who are good football players enroll at SJP or LaSalle or Wood because that’s where they want to play football. That’s not unfair or illegal, and it doesn’t mean that those schools should win a state championship every year. What it does mean, is that they’re by and large immune to the peaks and valleys that you get in talent at a geography based school. The opposite is true too. Up here, Notre Dame stunk forever because, well, Notre Dame stunk so what good football player is going to chose to go there when you could go to your local public school or Becahi, Pius, or ACC where you’re actually going to win.
There are always going to be public schools that have the right group of kids in the right year that can compete with the open enrollment powerhouses. What the difference is, and will continue to be, is who those schools are year-to-year will vary much more (and those variations are greater the smaller the school), while the open enrollment schools should be really good every year. I think that’s what’s frustrating to public school fans, there are only so many years that you truly have a shot, and it sucks to have the same one or two behemoths standing in your way every time that you do. But nobody ever articulates this well, and usually resorts to whining about transfers, which isn’t entirely accurate.
Tulla, to your point, just looking at the PCL games with D11, it seems like mismatch based on the six year losing streak. But if you actually look at the games, other than LaSalle-Parkland in 2012, they’re all games.
There are always going to be public schools that have the right group of kids in the right year that can compete with the open enrollment powerhouses. What the difference is, and will continue to be, is who those schools are year-to-year will vary much more (and those variations are greater the smaller the school), while the open enrollment schools should be really good every year. I think that’s what’s frustrating to public school fans, there are only so many years that you truly have a shot, and it sucks to have the same one or two behemoths standing in your way every time that you do. But nobody ever articulates this well, and usually resorts to whining about transfers, which isn’t entirely accurate.
Tulla, to your point, just looking at the PCL games with D11, it seems like mismatch based on the six year losing streak. But if you actually look at the games, other than LaSalle-Parkland in 2012, they’re all games.
- 2008 – LaSalle loses to GW and doesn’t play Liberty, who won the state title
- 2009 – LaSalle wins one of the better high school football games I’ve ever seen, 17-14 over Easton in the snow, breaking my heart in the process
- 2010 – LaSalle trails at halftime and is only up 10-7 with two minutes left against an Easton team (playing WAY over its head) before a late FG after a fumble and pick-6 stretch the final margin
- 2011 – LaSalle, leading Nazareth 35-33 with 4 minutes left goes for it on 4th down in their own territory and gets a 56 yard TD run to ice it
- 2012 – LaSalle kills Parkland 28-7 in a game that wasn’t that close
- 2013 – SJP went up 21-0 then coasted to a 21-10 win over Parkland, though the Trojans actually outgained them 290-270
- 2014 – SJP needs a fourth down conversion in the final five minutes to extend a drive, then gets a 50 yard TD with 4 minutes left to beat Parkland 34-30
It's all about admin's desire to win and the coaches they hire. Let's just say the Central Bucks school district's decide they want to start competing and winning again. CB West's bring back Pettine and Carey, think they're not winning again? Put Carey at Pennsbury, and guess what. Make no mistake about, open enrollment has it's advantages, but if it was so great, why isn't PCC coming out of D7 every year?
Pitt CC may not come out of the WPIAL every year but they have been in the mix every year since 2002. So that is what almost a decade and a half of being either the best team or one of the top 3 teams in the WPIAL. It helps to have open enrollment. The difference to me is that the public schools in the WPIAL are vastly different and play a different style than the public schools in District one especially the SOL.
Pittsburgh Central Catholic isn’t coming out of the WPIAL every year because it’s a one game playoff and in that small of a sample size, the better team isn’t going to win every single time. But PCC is a good example of being impervious to cycles. Since 2000, PCC is 163-27 with 2 state titles, 4 state championship appearances, 7 WPIAL finals. They’ve been undefeated in the regular season six times, had one loss another four times, and only once have had more than two regular season losses this century (when they were 6-3 in 2002).
In that same stretch, here are the records of the powerhouse public schools in 4A
Pittsburgh Central Catholic: 163-27
Wilson: 157-31
Upper St. Clair: 133-38
North Penn: 159-40
Cumberland Valley 167-41
Neshaminy: 144-44
McKeesport: 123-45
Central Dauphin: 135-46
Parkland: 139-47
Easton: 151-46
North Allegheny: 129-50
Woodland Hills: 131-54
Liberty: 117-63
Wilson's consistency is an outlier, but they also haven't won an out of district playoff game in this time span and are the only team on the list in their conference.
In that same stretch, here are the records of the powerhouse public schools in 4A
Pittsburgh Central Catholic: 163-27
Wilson: 157-31
Upper St. Clair: 133-38
North Penn: 159-40
Cumberland Valley 167-41
Neshaminy: 144-44
McKeesport: 123-45
Central Dauphin: 135-46
Parkland: 139-47
Easton: 151-46
North Allegheny: 129-50
Woodland Hills: 131-54
Liberty: 117-63
Wilson's consistency is an outlier, but they also haven't won an out of district playoff game in this time span and are the only team on the list in their conference.
Sammy,
Just curious as to the difference in styles between the WPIAL and District 1.
I also don't think its totally fair to lump, LaSalle, Prep, Wood and Imhotep in the same sentence. It is much more difficult to coach an Imhotep team as opposed to the Catholic schools.
If Roman or Judge were in the SOL I don't think either would dominate and they have open enrollment.
The Prep had their hands full in both their wins over Parkland the last two years. I honestly think coaching prevailed in those games and most certainly in their triumph over PCC in 2013. The LaSalle team headed by Gordon had a great staff from top to bottom during his tenure which made his job the perfect one because I always viewed him as a coach who delegated more so as opposed to the more hands on approach that Infante runs.
Just imagine a team with good talent headed by Infante with Brett Gordon and Carey as coordinators.
Just curious as to the difference in styles between the WPIAL and District 1.
I also don't think its totally fair to lump, LaSalle, Prep, Wood and Imhotep in the same sentence. It is much more difficult to coach an Imhotep team as opposed to the Catholic schools.
If Roman or Judge were in the SOL I don't think either would dominate and they have open enrollment.
The Prep had their hands full in both their wins over Parkland the last two years. I honestly think coaching prevailed in those games and most certainly in their triumph over PCC in 2013. The LaSalle team headed by Gordon had a great staff from top to bottom during his tenure which made his job the perfect one because I always viewed him as a coach who delegated more so as opposed to the more hands on approach that Infante runs.
Just imagine a team with good talent headed by Infante with Brett Gordon and Carey as coordinators.
I think LaSalle absolutely outcoached Parkland in 2012 (I also think that Parkland team was the weakest D11 rep since Liberty in 1994) as they completely shut down the zone read and Parkland didn't have a plan B.
Not sure about the two SJP games though. I don't really remember much about the 2013 game, other than Parkland had terrible field position a lot and was down 21-0 before you could blink. Last year I think was a classic example of Swift and Zaccheus being the two best guys on the field and taking over when they needed plays. The two FBS skill guys gained 340 all purpose yards and scored three touchdowns. If anything, the adjustments Parkland made to dig out of a 20-3 hole to take a 30-27 lead was what turned it from a laugher to a dog fight.
Not sure about the two SJP games though. I don't really remember much about the 2013 game, other than Parkland had terrible field position a lot and was down 21-0 before you could blink. Last year I think was a classic example of Swift and Zaccheus being the two best guys on the field and taking over when they needed plays. The two FBS skill guys gained 340 all purpose yards and scored three touchdowns. If anything, the adjustments Parkland made to dig out of a 20-3 hole to take a 30-27 lead was what turned it from a laugher to a dog fight.
Kitwor,
I think you just answered your own question to Sammy. Bad coaches don't stick around long in D7, and D11, for the most part. Bad coaches can stick around for ever in some D1 schools.
I think you just answered your own question to Sammy. Bad coaches don't stick around long in D7, and D11, for the most part. Bad coaches can stick around for ever in some D1 schools.
Hey Rover:
I believe the PIAA rule book states that no player can transfer for athletic reasons. So, it would be illegal.
Interesting post. Whatever else was said in subsequent posts, the premise that screams out in yours to me is that to a high degree, since the PCL joined the PIAA, we know who the "probable" winners will be.....for whatever reason. That, we can probably all agree on and that has robbed us of something. Open Enrollment has changed the dynamic of HS FB across the Commonwealth in conjunction with superior coaching some schools attract. Open or not, Coach Gordon, Pettine, Schmidt, etc, etc aren't likely to show up at the doorsteps of Phila Central, Bartram or Southern.
Looking at a broader view, we also used to know or have a strong inclination who would win it when CB West owned the thing, or Berwick, Southern Columbia and more recently Clairton. If you look at others that dominate at the local-district level (maybe beyond), it's the same thing. Wilson, Central Dauphin, Easton, McKeesport, Parkland, North Penn, North Allegheny, Woodland Hills; any classification, Wyomissing, Clairton, Aliquippa, Rochester, Karns City....you get the point....the teams that are there almost always don't dominate no reason. They have great coaches.
At the end of the day the advantages of combining open enrollment with good coaching are evident, as we've all seen since 2009.
Looking at a broader view, we also used to know or have a strong inclination who would win it when CB West owned the thing, or Berwick, Southern Columbia and more recently Clairton. If you look at others that dominate at the local-district level (maybe beyond), it's the same thing. Wilson, Central Dauphin, Easton, McKeesport, Parkland, North Penn, North Allegheny, Woodland Hills; any classification, Wyomissing, Clairton, Aliquippa, Rochester, Karns City....you get the point....the teams that are there almost always don't dominate no reason. They have great coaches.
At the end of the day the advantages of combining open enrollment with good coaching are evident, as we've all seen since 2009.
I don't think so.
Not sure if the Haven guys are invited back. They got bumped by a TV crew last yr.
