The Prep rolled up 38 points in the first half against Wood the other night. Final was something like 52 to 6 with Wood scoring at the end of the game. Same 38 points they put up against La Salle in their first half. Only Prep took the foot off the pedal in that one Prep 38-14. Also heard the Prep hasn't practiced in a week and a half because of covid. I would love to know how good they really are!!
Prep takes Wood apart
- Thread starter paul from philly
- Start date
Paul,
I watched much of the Prep-Wood game via the livestream. First play of the game, McCord completed a 50-yard pass and it was all Prep from then on.
Last night I looked at part of the Prep-Wood game from 2013, thanks to the video SFBN put on YouTube. What struck me was how much bigger and better that Wood team was than the Wood teams I've seen the last three years. How much was it the coaching of Devlin and Carey? I very much doubt that it's because the Prep is getting a lot of players who otherwise would go to Wood since the Prep has never had that many guys from up that way. Similarly, I don't think the LaSalle teams of the last couple of years come close to the LaSalle teams of the Gordon era. That might be partly because some guys who might have gone to LaSalle five or six years ago are now going to the Prep (the Swift factor?), but again I wonder if there hasn't just been a general drop off. What do you think?
Anyone know whether the PCL teams will connect with the PIAA playoffs, if the playoffs aren't cancelled by COVID. Does the Prep play the winner of LaSalle-Wood? Do the D12 winners play D1 since D11 has oped out?
Wood’s enrollment and talent are certainly down from where they both were around that time. There is no doubt Wood was a lot better in those years. In addition, SJP wasn’t as good. I watched Wood’s state final game from last year and I believe they had less than 40 players dressed for the game. It’s going to be hard to compete with SJP when you have so few kids.
Carey is maybe the best line coach in PA. Just look at his teams that he coached and that's the big common factor.
Unless something drastic happens in their game with Roman, Prep would be District 12 PCL 6 A champ. Since there is no 6A Pub, they therefore would be District 12 champ and play the District 1 6 A champ in 3 weeks.
On a side note, is this any good for high school football, or even Prep football? Both LaSalle & Wood might be top 10 teams in the state-and they games are over at halftime. I am not sure its even fun for Prep players. The starters are out of the game by halftime every week, and they do not even have to practice to put up 40 in 24 minutes of football. Schools like Ryan & Judge look like they have chosen not to even try and compete with Prep. Does the day ever come where LaSalle and Wood do the same thing?
On a side note, is this any good for high school football, or even Prep football? Both LaSalle & Wood might be top 10 teams in the state-and they games are over at halftime. I am not sure its even fun for Prep players. The starters are out of the game by halftime every week, and they do not even have to practice to put up 40 in 24 minutes of football. Schools like Ryan & Judge look like they have chosen not to even try and compete with Prep. Does the day ever come where LaSalle and Wood do the same thing?
The disparity will be much less at least in the next couple of years.
But unless you think the Prep is getting a number of guys who otherwise would have gone to LaSalle and Wood you'd have to say the disparity this year is about about those teams being down--certainly compared to their teams of 5-10 years ago-- as well as about SJP having an especially good team. Yes, Harrison went to LaSalle for a year, but McCord, Cooper, Hagans, Talley, Trotter etc. were not redirected to the Prep from LaSalle or Wood. Last year Judge and Ryan were also way down from where they used to be. Remember that about six years ago Ryan beat both the Prep and Wood in the same regular season?
Has Bucks County in the last couple of years had any team as good as Neshaminy in '13 or NP in '16?
Prep draws players from NJ,Philly, Bucks and Montco. And I probably missed some areas. Kinda crazy system we have.
You missed Delaware and Chester Counties.
Yes, that's always been the case. When I was at the Prep we had students (who, as far as I can remember, were not athletes) from as far away as Trenton and Reading. Not having geographical boundaries is clearly an advantage, but it also presents challenges. If people don't recognize that, they're missing something. Having to be bussed to your practice field and then having to travel 5, 10, 15, 20 miles to get home after practice is not everyone's cup of tea.
Paul
Agreed.... Prep is a pipeline to major college football. Why else would the parents go through all that you said. QB and WR Ohio State commits and a LB / Clemson and the other has multiple offers from top universities....not to mention the linemen. This team of high school players would be competative with many D1AA and beat D2 and D3 colleges. What a collection of tallent!
Regardless of where they draw from, the amount of talent, coaching and investment in the program is to be commended. Not only have the dwarfed the local " neighborhood" schools in the PCL, they have left the other top notch PCL programs in the dust. But my original question is are they so good that its actually not good for the league, the state and even the school itself?
Speed
You got a point... SJP has gotten soo good they have to travel out of state to find competetive competition. They embarrassed local teams and it was obvious they held the score down on many and that includes LaSalle. To answer your question... NO, on all three levels. Maybe the answer is to create a playoff system for the schools who recruit in PA or national playoff system for the numerous high profile schools. That woud be fun to watch. But sooner or later some local kid is going to get seriously hurt playing against this juggernaut (Definition: a huge, powerful, and overwelming force or institution.).
At that point.....The PIAA and high school football will be tarnished forever. It could lead to the haters calling to do away with the sport all together.
You got a point... SJP has gotten soo good they have to travel out of state to find competetive competition. They embarrassed local teams and it was obvious they held the score down on many and that includes LaSalle. To answer your question... NO, on all three levels. Maybe the answer is to create a playoff system for the schools who recruit in PA or national playoff system for the numerous high profile schools. That woud be fun to watch. But sooner or later some local kid is going to get seriously hurt playing against this juggernaut (Definition: a huge, powerful, and overwelming force or institution.).
At that point.....The PIAA and high school football will be tarnished forever. It could lead to the haters calling to do away with the sport all together.
Most schools in the PCL are not "neighborhood schools" in they way they were decades ago. Long gone are the days when depending on which side of Street X you lived on determined whether you went to North Catholic and Roman, Judge or Ryan, Tommy More or WC.
Your original question is a good one. Looking around the state and the region, I think you can see wider and wider disparities between the top teams and "all the rest." When was the last time Southern Columbia had a competitive game? How many close games has Pine-Richland played in the last six years? Coatesville? When I look at the statewide results on another site, I see fewer and fewer close games and more and more blowouts.
I agree there are potential downsides for the Prep itself. Does the football program become separate from the rest of the school community? Are academic standards compromised? I know the senior administrators at the school are well aware of these and other issues. They know that if the school gets it wrong the damage will greatly outweigh any football glory. It's not easy, and there have been mistakes over the years--sometimes as a result of taking a chance on a kid. There have also been some great successes, In the spring two African-American alumni (Shane Davis and Justin Montague) who very well may not have come to the Prep if they hadn't been attracted by the football program graduated from medical school. And look at the academically very strong colleges many of the football players have gone to--whether they've gone on to play football or not.
Tulla...... Everyone familiar with SJP as an academic institution knows how great an education you get there. No doubt they produce high quality students/gentlemen.
But the the conversation here is about,..."is it good for the game"? You said "Long gone are the days when depending on which side of Street X you lived on"... thats what we are talking about. SJP is playing against teams that are still dependant upon "which side of Street X you lived on".
The PIAA and SJP may have to answer these questions. I just hope its not at the exspense of the kid that couldnt cross the street.
None of the schools SJP plays against in the regular season is a neighborhood school--not the out-of-state schools (with the possible exception of Marietta last year) or the PCL schools or even the PPL champions. The question for the PIAA is whether they want to go the Ohio route (where public and non-public schools compete against each other) or the Jersey route (where they don't but where the non-public, i.e. Catholic schools, get the lion's share of attention.
A question: if next year the gap between SJP and other very good 6A teams in PA is much narrower, if it exits at all, will this issue continue?
T.....Ohio? Lets take the the division that has st ignatius, st xavier and archbishop moeller since everyone has heard of these powerhouse football schools. Since 2000 (20 years) there has been only 4 public schools who have won that divisions state championship. Catholic and private schools win 80% of the championships.
Are there as many complaints in Ohio as there are in PA? That's a real question; I have no idea what the answer is. Does it matter that there are several non-public schools (including St. Edward's?) that have won?
I googled that and yes its a hot topic in Ohio. When it came to a vote the catholic teams threatened to leave the Ohio association altogether. It was defeated
If you took SJP out of the PIAA picture (not saying this should be done), I think you see a very competitive 6A. LaSalle had very competitive games against Del-Val, Downingtown East, and Mannheim Township (not exactly the best boundary 6A teams this year). I think Arch Wood would find themselves in competitive games with the top public school programs in 6A. LaSalle and Arch Wood are arguably the second/third (we’ll find out this weekend) best non-boundary schools in PIAA in 6A. I think a Pennridge/Coatesville/Neshaminy could beat both LaSalle and Arch Wood (emphasis on could; any matchup is probably a “toss up”). My point is the landscape in 6A could be very competitive, regardless of boundaries, if it wasn’t for SJP.
Note: Again I am not advocating for SJP to be removed from the PIAA. I am just trying to illuminate the rest of the 6A picture.
Note: Again I am not advocating for SJP to be removed from the PIAA. I am just trying to illuminate the rest of the 6A picture.
As a former Ohio resident I feel equipped to answer. Yes, if not more. I’ve said this on other threads and it’s been said above, but Division I in Ohio has been dominated by the big Catholics forever. Only 12 of the 47 champs since they started a state playoffs have been public schools - just St. Ignatius as 11. Seven of the last eight division ii champs, eight of the last ten division iii champs.
The distribution in Ohio is different in that you have multiple major private school powers in two of the major metropolitan areas. Cleveland had St. Ed’s and Ignatius; Cincinnati has Moeller, Elder, St. X, and LaSalle - all of whom are more like SJP than the LaSalles or Woods of the present day. Plus Akron has Hoban and SVSM and Youngstown has Ursuline and Mooney (all four of which tackup titles in the smaller divisions). The only Division I schools that have won titles this century are Upper Arlington, Hilliard Darby, and Pickerington Central - which are huge suburban Columbus schools (think North Allegheny or North Penn) where there isn’t really a private school alternative that’s good.
Ohio has done a lot to try and balance things by division. They were one of the first State with a competitive balance calculation that moved schools up classifications based on the geographic makeup of their rosters and based on recent success. That has moved the Youngstown schools, for example, out of the smallest divisions in Ohio where they just crushed the little farm towns they played against.
But I know from coaches I keep in touch with that there is very much a “what’s the point” to a lot of the state level competition because the big Catholic schools are just playing a different game. Mentor made a really fun run through the tournament that was a huge underdog story at the time - because Mitch Trubisky was their quarterback (Wayne with Braxton Miller was similar) but that’s the only time schools are getting within a couple touchdowns of the super powers. It certainly makes it less fun to follow, and since moving I’ve really dropped off.
Totally agree. I said last year, sans SJP it would have been one of the most fun state playoffs of the era with the parity behind them. But the actual champ was a forgone conclusion
I think your comparison with S. Columbia is spot on. And there has been much written about how their dominance is bad for the class they are in and much debate about having them play up a class ( or 2 ) not only for the good of the entire state , but even for the school themselves to test how they’d do against different competition. The difference between Prep and S Columbia is that Columbia is a neighborhood school. If you grow up there , you have to go there ( public school) . And the PIAA can’t ask prep to play up a class or 2. They are already dominating the highest level.
Tulla- you know more about Prep then most anyone here and you seem convinced the gap between them and Wood/Lasalle might narrow in a few years . I guess it depends on how narrow it gets. if that means being up 21-0 at the half instead of 35-0 and winning 42-6 instead of 52-6 , then that’s not narrow enough. I think they would have to actually lose a league game or 2 , or maybe lose to a D1 or D3 school in the playoffs before the drop off would be noticeable.
Tulla- you know more about Prep then most anyone here and you seem convinced the gap between them and Wood/Lasalle might narrow in a few years . I guess it depends on how narrow it gets. if that means being up 21-0 at the half instead of 35-0 and winning 42-6 instead of 52-6 , then that’s not narrow enough. I think they would have to actually lose a league game or 2 , or maybe lose to a D1 or D3 school in the playoffs before the drop off would be noticeable.
These are all fair comments. First off, it’s highly unlikely that they will have this type of talent again, but I understand that the drop off is limited. Talent continues to flow, which pegs the next point being that the pool of players has shrunk as Tulla has alluded often in the past. This has happened for a number of reasons. I think the thinking pool of kids in football has forced greater focus on opportunity and advancement. Combine that with preps reputation for academic rigors and it creates a vacuum effect. Lasalle has similar scenario with swimming. I’m not sure how long it lasts and credit should be given to coaches as well to keep the focus. Lastly, Prep has played out of state schools for almost 30 years, extensively over the last 20+. They should come closer to the pack but the goal every year is to win the Catholic league first, then the state. Time will tell.
What I wonder about is the extent to which there is a connection, assuming there is a connection, between the Prep's strength in the last several years and what seems to me like a drop off in talent at LaSalle and Wood in the last few years--yes, Wood won the state 5A championship last year but that team, and this year's, are nowhere near the Wood teams of 4-10 years ago--and at Judge, Ryan, Roman, O'Hara, and West Catholic in the last 10 years or more--even though some of those schools have had OK teams here and there. People who follow lots of the D1 schools also report that many teams that used to be quite strong (Ridley, Pennsbury, Neshaminy, North Penn) have not been as strong in the last few years. Same for D11. People from the Lehigh Valley say that the very good teams at Liberty, Freedom, ACC, BCC, etc of the past were much better than the teams from those schools in the last fie years or more. Is that because of SJP's strength? I could go further back and further north ... Who are the Blakely Bears of 2020?
All in all we're talking about a team that could beat the PA BIG 33 team. And I'm serious!
Taking the second point first - SJP doesn't have a connection to the down cycle in the Valley. If I'm not mistaken, the only Lehigh Valley kid who went to play at SJP was Davion Kidd-Jackson. I think I went through this in another thread, but I think you have coaching disasters at varying degrees at a lot of the schools that should be the best schools in D11 (Easton and Liberty mainly, but Becahi also less with more than any program in eastern Pennsylvania). Parkland is in a little bit of a down cycle (relatively and after being really good from 2011-2016), but the ecosystem's teams that should have naturally filled that can't get out of their own way. And going back, I don't think it's an accident that Liberty's run of being very good (in addition to Moncman) coincided with Bethlehem Catholic bottoming out after Stem left; or Parkland's real rise coinciding with Morgans leaving at Allentown Central Catholic in '98 and that program bottoming out before Fairclough (and him eventually going to Parkland). Right now, the Lehigh Valley looks like the Big Ten if Ohio State (Parkland) took a step back, Wisconsin (Easton) and Michigan (Liberty) both had total clowns as coaches and were missing bowl games, and Penn State (Becahi) was landing monster recruiting classes, but losing 3 games every year anyway and missing the conference title game. It's great for Northwestern (Nazareth) or Iowa (Freedom) can win the league, but they're not going to the College Football Playoff ever because they just don't have the built in advantages to be that kind of team.
The District 1/Philly in general effect may be greater than you think. Different sport, but if you look at the after effects of the mid-1990s to early-2000s transfer bonanza in the Lehigh Valley wrestling scene, with Easton, Nazareth, and Northampton loading up on guys from other schools to make these super teams, it set Valley wrestling back a decade. There was a real dip in how competitive we were at the state level, partly because all the programs that used to produce a state champ contender every so often completely dried up. It hurt feeder programs, it hurt the competitiveness of the season (which hurt fan involvement), and it created a coaching brain drain, because who wants to go take the Whitehall or Freedom job just to get your head kicked in when you can leave the area and build a winner. District 11 got significantly worse in the process, and it took a solid 10 years to build it back up. The analogy isn't perfect and I don't know the D1/Philly football ecosystem as well as I know the Lehigh Valley wrestling one, but I see a lot of parallels as an outsider.
Kidd-Jackson didn’t get past freshman year at Prep. I know he got offers, but not sure where he ended up
He’s just the only Lehigh Valley kid to my knowledge who has attended for any length of time. If LV kids are going that route route, they’re going to Blair.
He went to West Catholic and played QB for, I think, two years. Hard to imagine he commuted from the LV to Philly.
Tulla -
I was told he had family in Philly and that was the connection. They have had a few kids over the years attend from that area, usually legacy related.
Wasn’t casting aspersions, he’s was the only example I could think of who played in the LV (he was the QB for Easton’s freshman team as an 8th grader) who ended up at SJP as a response to “is SJP’s strength causing a down cycle up there”
I say there is a point where it is not good for the league. However I think its great tp have such a program in the area, but they may do everyone including themselves more justice by playing a national or regional schedule. Maybe have the JV team the the PCL? But let's see where high school football goes from the 2020 / COVID stricken season...... the season that never was! Lol
The future is really hard to predict. If we're lucky, we'll have something close to a normal season next year, but what I wonder about is how many kids now 10-14 years old who would normally be playing organized football this year are not doing so and will never play at the high school level.. There were already lots of schools that were struggling with numbers of kids in their programs. Maybe I'm all wrong and there'll be a flood of kids coming out eager to do something they missed.
I'm hoping it's the second of your choices Tulla. I think most kids, like their parents, want to get the hell out and get back to normal. The numbers may fall as far as participation goes (been happening for the last few years) but the players want to play. Hoping I'm right!!
