i tried to copy article from the Morning call - Courts cleared was for student athletes to hold PIAA liable for concussions. This has major ramifications on multiple levels and multiple sports. Tulla has subtlely been alluding to this. This a now a legal liability that I suspect many districts and couches wish not to have to face. I understand the ramifications, but we have gotten too litigious and very soft.
PIAA liable for concussions
- Thread starter roxychknpoxy
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This will be the end of football as we know it today. School districts being faced with lawsuits?? They will run for the hills. Programs will be dropped for sure!!
Have we gotten too litigious as a society... Yes..everyone wants to sue everyone... Do I think we have gotten too soft.. I don't think so.. with all the studies out now you can see the damage that can be caused by having multiple concussions let alone having multiple ones under the age of 16. if that same data was available say 30 years ago where would the sport be today?
You see pro's leaving the sport after 3 or 4 years to avoid permanent damage. Players have gotten stronger and faster quicker then the protective equipment can keep up with them...
What do you mean studies are inconclusive? Are you including the study that found that 99% of deceased NFL players had CTE? Of course the sample was not entirely representative, but as of now we can only examine the brains of those who've died when assessing for CTE. As Dr.McKee of Boston University (a specialist in this area) said, "There's no question that there is a problem in football, that people who play football are at risk for this disease." Can you cite any study that suggests football players are not at increased risk of brain injury or any that found basketball and lacrosse players have a comparable risk?
This is all ridiculous and just another example of today's society full of money grabbing, entitlement idiots. The game hasn't change in decades. We all had our bell rung a few times, I was knocked out in a game. I raised three kids and am old and fine. Parents and kids are soft. Strap the chin strap on and go to work or go play a non contact sport. So kids sign up for football not knowing they may get hurt? Please. Take your balls out of your purse!
The evidence is what it is. Have you examined it with any care? Making sweeping generalizations--"parents and kids are soft"--is not persuasive. And all of us can cite individuals (in your case you are keen to point to yourself) who appear to have healthy brains. But anecdotes are the weakest form of evidence. I know people who were heavy smokers all their lives and lived into their nineties, so am I soft if I discourage my kids from smoking?
Tulla - I bet out of the 99% that they tested it was from a small sample. It exaggerates the outcome of the study. I do think CTE is real but also think the % of people who get it is much lower. I do not have any studies that suggest soccer, hoops or lacrosse have a higher chance of getting CTE. I played D1, cousins, uncles,dad did too and we all had one, two or multiple concussions, sons are playing college and had concussions along the way. We are all productive citizens. I also know 100's college and pro's that have made it through A-Okay. Out of the hundreds that I know there are some who have had issues, maybe CTE. I acknowledge its there but at a smaller per cent. I believe we have lost or edge and are soft over all as a society.
The sample, as I recall, was a little over 100 brains. Of course, they were not selected at random, and no one would suggest that 99% of NFL players have or will develop CTE. And there is real danger that high profile cases (e.g. Hernandez) could lead to over-generalizations, but the bulk of evidence as I read it points to a very real problem. Interestingly, there is a growing number of younger NFL players who are deciding, despite their high salaries, to leave the game. Younger players--kids and adolescents--are obviously less capable of assessing risk, and we know that no one is less risk averse than a teenager--one reason adolescent drivers have such a high rate of accidents. Does that mean parents of young boys and adolescents who are interested in playing football should ignore the information that is available in fear of being called or regarded as soft?
I think there is great value for adolescents in playing sports (especially team ones, including football), so I think the decision to allow or encourage one's child to play is not an easy one. I see no reason to belittle parents who are interested in ways to reduce the risk of brain injuries their sons may incur.
Didn't take long for weak or "soft" parenting come out. Rather than throw darts, as fans of the game how bout an initiative to preserve the game. That would mean actually listening to those people whose kids are NOT playing the game. What are their reasons? I would be very curious, because brain trauma is without a doubt a hesitancy, but is it the overriding reason? Have we created an environment closed to the rank and file kid? The 175 pound linebacker? (remember there are LOTS of schools out there). This is a good thread. Just curious if anyone has first has first hand knowledge of neighbor or friend backing out of the game.
I think one of the real reasons is that the players are going for the big "explosive" hit and not the tackle anymore. In fact I'll go as far as to say players today don't know how to tackle. Infante and a few other coaches started something a few years ago (Heads Up or something like that) and the point was to teach the proper way to tackle. There was an Eagles player a few years ago (name escapes me) who would just come in for the explosive hit, like a missile. The runner usually got away. And the guy aint an Eagle anymore. Take their helmets away and watch what happens.
You're on to something, Paul. We were taught to put our faces in the midsection of the player we were tackling, not to fly at a guy, leading with the tops of our helmets. The game at the high school level is more dangerous today for at least a couple of reasons. First, players are much bigger and stronger than they were when I played. Back then the great majority of linemen were just under or just over 200 lbs. and, truth be told, there was a lot less lifting and strength training. Being big and strong does not protect a player's brain any better by any means but having one's brain hit by a bigger stronger player puts one's brain in greater danger. Second, there is far more passing in high school football, especially short to medium passes that depend on split-second timing. Nobody is more vulnerable than a receiver who is supposed to be entirely focused on catching the ball and not at all on the defender who's lining up for the perfectly timed hit.
Some solutions: follow hockey's lead where body checking has been banned in many places before age 11 or so. (That would essentially mean it's "touch football" only till about 7th grade.) The younger the player the more vulnerable the brain. Second, from the start teach kids safer ways to block and tackle and continue to penalize helmet to helmet hitting. Of course some such hitting (unintended) will continue to happen, so there needs to be continued work on improving helmets.
I think there has always been parents that have kept their kids from playing football due to fear of injuries head, spinal/neck and knees, now that more is known about concussions that will not help participation. I know these NFL studies show some serious concerns, but the study almost seems anecdotal as well, such a small sample and guys that have played HS, college, and NFL. Playing at those levels is a lot different and exaggerates the situation significantly. In 2014 1.1 million kids were playing high school football so about 250,000 a year HS alone. Not sure when HS football levels peaked '95, '85, '75, "65 etc? But that is a lot of HS football players over the last 100 years, didn't seem like an epidemic of head injuries. Would be great to study players who only played HS football....
I agree tackling has gotten poorer, but there has been a lot of positive change where most teams do not even hit in practice and a lot of old school drills have been eliminated. 20-40 years ago we hit all the time and some crazy drills...Not the case today.
I agree tackling has gotten poorer, but there has been a lot of positive change where most teams do not even hit in practice and a lot of old school drills have been eliminated. 20-40 years ago we hit all the time and some crazy drills...Not the case today.
Paul, Infante has done a fantastic job of promoting heads up tackling. From what I can see as an outsider he promotes it, and perhaps families going there feel at the very least he is protecting them and the game. I am starting to see a change in the game slowly from the Andre Waters/Brian Dawkins kill shots, to more traditional tackling. I believe culturally the game needs to reward the standard tackle and call out the reckless one. That will take some time, and we may not have that luxury. The peel back blindside block also has to leave the game and quick. Not sure how popular that view is. Typically in a game those that call it out are kind of ostracized. But getting angry about it isn't gonna help. So those parents that are on the front lines, along with coaches need to get a hold of this thing.
No doubt this could be a game changer. However what happens when a kid sues after a soccer concussion, basketball concussion etc. I'll tell you what really scares me is youth sports goes fully into full profit mode. Already seeing it move in that direction. Schools get out of it and we go full travel team mode with some snake oil salesmen selling mom and dad on a scholarship potential. True AAU teams at high school level without having to worry about school affiliation. It's kinda happening already. AAU more important that school ball in high level hoops. Hell I know soccer kids who play for this Union development program that are not allowed to play for their high school team by "contract". That seems insane to me.
If it moves in that direction only the best kids matter. The other kids fall through the wayside and we move to the youth travel baseball model which is everything wrong with sports in my opinion. If liability forces schools out of sports we go into full release the hounds mode where opportunists will sell mom and dad that Joey's athletic ability is really their true college savings plan that deserves investment. Realistically it's lining their pockets.
Football is dangerous. Concussions are real. I've had more than my fair share. I'd be lying if I said I didn't do damage to my brain and other extremities playing the sport. So I understand that and that argument is real. I also did damage doing other dumb stuff like falling out of a tree, getting into my share of scraps and a multitude of things that had zero to do with football. Just about every career success I've ever had has a football tie. Got the luckiest break landing an unbelievable job where a 45 minute interview consisted of a business question that led to 40 minutes of football talk followed by do you want the job. Would not trade the entirety of my playing,coaching etc football experience for anything in the world. I also realizes that comes off sounding like a total hammerhead moron that many health experts would say is beyond stupid given the potential ramifications. Life without risk isn't really life.
Last thing football today is very different than football of 30, 40 years ago. Go to a practice. It's not recognizable. When I played you hit everyday except day before the game. There were as many practice injuries as game injuries. The amount of blows are down. Kids bigger/faster but things have improved dramatically on how many hits kids take. Game changing. Science may prove that no matter the change it's too dangerous for minors.
If it moves in that direction only the best kids matter. The other kids fall through the wayside and we move to the youth travel baseball model which is everything wrong with sports in my opinion. If liability forces schools out of sports we go into full release the hounds mode where opportunists will sell mom and dad that Joey's athletic ability is really their true college savings plan that deserves investment. Realistically it's lining their pockets.
Football is dangerous. Concussions are real. I've had more than my fair share. I'd be lying if I said I didn't do damage to my brain and other extremities playing the sport. So I understand that and that argument is real. I also did damage doing other dumb stuff like falling out of a tree, getting into my share of scraps and a multitude of things that had zero to do with football. Just about every career success I've ever had has a football tie. Got the luckiest break landing an unbelievable job where a 45 minute interview consisted of a business question that led to 40 minutes of football talk followed by do you want the job. Would not trade the entirety of my playing,coaching etc football experience for anything in the world. I also realizes that comes off sounding like a total hammerhead moron that many health experts would say is beyond stupid given the potential ramifications. Life without risk isn't really life.
Last thing football today is very different than football of 30, 40 years ago. Go to a practice. It's not recognizable. When I played you hit everyday except day before the game. There were as many practice injuries as game injuries. The amount of blows are down. Kids bigger/faster but things have improved dramatically on how many hits kids take. Game changing. Science may prove that no matter the change it's too dangerous for minors.
Of course, this is a very serious topic.
On a lighter note, though, I can remember talking to my Dad one time about the "way" tackles seemed to be made when he played (and I was referencing films of the game from the late '30s and then the '40s and I'm sure I'm not the only one of us who has made the same observation).
Anyway, what I am talking about here is that the players of that era were tackling with their shoulders and looking as if they were keeping their faces and heads away from the point of impact.
And why would they be doing that? Nobody wore facemasks!
During our discussion my Dad commented that he'd look in the mirror at his face (before a game) and wonder if his nose (or something else) would appear the same afterward (nothing worse than a broken nose or a few missing or broken teeth to ruin your day).
So perhaps the fix is to eliminate the facemask. I suspect spearing and using the head/face as a ramming point would quickly become a thing of the past.
Needless to say, this is a comical interjection into a very important topic that certainly deserves to be front and center (which seems to be the case); however, as appears is often the case the reaction is getting too far (in my opinion) to the other side of the coin.
By the way, my personal, and admittedly anecdotally supported view on this topic, is based on my experiences in playing football which date back to the 3rd or 4th grade as a Queen of The Universe pee-wee guy (that was in Lower Bucks and probably 1963 or so).
Then following pee-wee and midget ball and junior high too I went on through high school and beyond as I was fortunate enough to secure a full ride at a D1 school located in the “Ol’ South” (that was in the early ‘70s). And although my collegiate career is most notable for injuries I did manage my way through to the end and have many great memories from those days (how many of us can say they had the opportunity to drop a sure touchdown pass just as they crossed the goal line at Neyland Stadium - ha).
Anyway, although I can’t say that I was ever knocked out cold in high school I can recall a few “dings” along the way that left an impression; however, in college it was a different story (everything was different then). And as it is, there are three events that stand out with two of them being those bell ringing, stunning moment “types” that featured a “booming” hit feeling followed by some disorientation and sound diminution with a generally blurry feeling for a while with all of that rather short lived (sadly, the headache that followed wasn’t as short lived).
The “one” that still stands out of those three was the result of a head-to-head shot. In that I was a fullback, and we ran the Wishbone, it seemed as if all I did was have the QB “ride me” for a bit before he pulled the ball back as he continued down the line and I pranced forward on my merry way off the left or right guard slot. But with that guy (the guard) pulling and the linebacker filling the gap as created there was always an impact (collisions for nothing as I used to say).
Still, one time I actually got the handoff (yay) so I had a little extra incentive to run over the LB (sure). And actually, I didn’t run over the LB as we instead we both put our head down and enjoyed a fairly high speed helmet crown to helmet crown head-on impact (I can still recall that “boom” just before the curtain came down).
Then interestingly the immediate thought I had – after the “boom” – was something like “man, I’m lying on a football on a field and it sure is quiet” (followed by “what year is this?”).
And it was quiet out there (there was a complete absence of sound). But with the quiet fading soon enough the next impression I had was that someone was turning the volume up as both reality and perception began to creep back into my head. Then despite the fact that I had been “absent” for a moment or so (and really wasn't "there") I did get up and walked back to the huddle. I then “listened” to the play call once there and trudged forward to assume my position. It was at that point one of the other RBs picked up on my apparent “lack of clarity” as I had no idea what the play call was and was still wrestling with the answer to the question that had been running through my mind from the moment I stood up to the point somebody yanked me to the sideline which was “what year is this?”.
The bad news about those experiences - which we all endured and from our view point - was that we would have to deal with excruciating headaches for several days. Then as to how the coaches and trainers and players too, as a whole, viewed those “bell ringers” – I’d say it was along the lines of “just another day” and “no big deal, just shake it off” (many a time a player was back in the game once the initial dust had cleared).
What’s the point of my walk down memory lane? Well, we all lived through those “things” and, as far as I know, I’m OK (now don’t ask any female I may have called my “girlfriend” over the years as they’d likely get into a litany of issues I have all of which would suggest I am not “OK”); however,and relying on our collective experiences, I’m thinking we can all say the same thing which would be “it seems that I’m OK”.
But most of us feeling we’re “OK” doesn’t make everyone “OK”. Plus with the evidence suggesting that the long term effect of continuous blows to the head (with some hits more significant than others) is not a good thing (who doubts that) this is an issue that requires whatever it takes to get it under control (and plenty of you guys are getting a finger on it when you note that parents will soon enough be keeping their kids out of the game to such an extent it will impact the available pool of players).
Wrapping it up, and in the meantime until this gets figured out, get rid of the facemask.
On a lighter note, though, I can remember talking to my Dad one time about the "way" tackles seemed to be made when he played (and I was referencing films of the game from the late '30s and then the '40s and I'm sure I'm not the only one of us who has made the same observation).
Anyway, what I am talking about here is that the players of that era were tackling with their shoulders and looking as if they were keeping their faces and heads away from the point of impact.
And why would they be doing that? Nobody wore facemasks!
During our discussion my Dad commented that he'd look in the mirror at his face (before a game) and wonder if his nose (or something else) would appear the same afterward (nothing worse than a broken nose or a few missing or broken teeth to ruin your day).
So perhaps the fix is to eliminate the facemask. I suspect spearing and using the head/face as a ramming point would quickly become a thing of the past.
Needless to say, this is a comical interjection into a very important topic that certainly deserves to be front and center (which seems to be the case); however, as appears is often the case the reaction is getting too far (in my opinion) to the other side of the coin.
By the way, my personal, and admittedly anecdotally supported view on this topic, is based on my experiences in playing football which date back to the 3rd or 4th grade as a Queen of The Universe pee-wee guy (that was in Lower Bucks and probably 1963 or so).
Then following pee-wee and midget ball and junior high too I went on through high school and beyond as I was fortunate enough to secure a full ride at a D1 school located in the “Ol’ South” (that was in the early ‘70s). And although my collegiate career is most notable for injuries I did manage my way through to the end and have many great memories from those days (how many of us can say they had the opportunity to drop a sure touchdown pass just as they crossed the goal line at Neyland Stadium - ha).
Anyway, although I can’t say that I was ever knocked out cold in high school I can recall a few “dings” along the way that left an impression; however, in college it was a different story (everything was different then). And as it is, there are three events that stand out with two of them being those bell ringing, stunning moment “types” that featured a “booming” hit feeling followed by some disorientation and sound diminution with a generally blurry feeling for a while with all of that rather short lived (sadly, the headache that followed wasn’t as short lived).
The “one” that still stands out of those three was the result of a head-to-head shot. In that I was a fullback, and we ran the Wishbone, it seemed as if all I did was have the QB “ride me” for a bit before he pulled the ball back as he continued down the line and I pranced forward on my merry way off the left or right guard slot. But with that guy (the guard) pulling and the linebacker filling the gap as created there was always an impact (collisions for nothing as I used to say).
Still, one time I actually got the handoff (yay) so I had a little extra incentive to run over the LB (sure). And actually, I didn’t run over the LB as we instead we both put our head down and enjoyed a fairly high speed helmet crown to helmet crown head-on impact (I can still recall that “boom” just before the curtain came down).
Then interestingly the immediate thought I had – after the “boom” – was something like “man, I’m lying on a football on a field and it sure is quiet” (followed by “what year is this?”).
And it was quiet out there (there was a complete absence of sound). But with the quiet fading soon enough the next impression I had was that someone was turning the volume up as both reality and perception began to creep back into my head. Then despite the fact that I had been “absent” for a moment or so (and really wasn't "there") I did get up and walked back to the huddle. I then “listened” to the play call once there and trudged forward to assume my position. It was at that point one of the other RBs picked up on my apparent “lack of clarity” as I had no idea what the play call was and was still wrestling with the answer to the question that had been running through my mind from the moment I stood up to the point somebody yanked me to the sideline which was “what year is this?”.
The bad news about those experiences - which we all endured and from our view point - was that we would have to deal with excruciating headaches for several days. Then as to how the coaches and trainers and players too, as a whole, viewed those “bell ringers” – I’d say it was along the lines of “just another day” and “no big deal, just shake it off” (many a time a player was back in the game once the initial dust had cleared).
What’s the point of my walk down memory lane? Well, we all lived through those “things” and, as far as I know, I’m OK (now don’t ask any female I may have called my “girlfriend” over the years as they’d likely get into a litany of issues I have all of which would suggest I am not “OK”); however,and relying on our collective experiences, I’m thinking we can all say the same thing which would be “it seems that I’m OK”.
But most of us feeling we’re “OK” doesn’t make everyone “OK”. Plus with the evidence suggesting that the long term effect of continuous blows to the head (with some hits more significant than others) is not a good thing (who doubts that) this is an issue that requires whatever it takes to get it under control (and plenty of you guys are getting a finger on it when you note that parents will soon enough be keeping their kids out of the game to such an extent it will impact the available pool of players).
Wrapping it up, and in the meantime until this gets figured out, get rid of the facemask.
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People say hockey players got more careless when they started wearing helmets--hard to believe that until about 30 years ago, most players didn't wear them--and that for decades goalies didn't wear face masks. Hockey players are now much bigger and stronger than they used to be--and the equipment can make them feel as well as look like gladiators. It would be helpful if football helmets could be designed in a way that discouraged their being used as weapons.
My dad's era had no facemasks; said he broke his nose more times playing football than he did boxing. We always preached see what you hit and hit what you see....
I started playing football in 1950, no face mask, leather helmet. I was six.
As I grew, the equipment improved. I had one of the first/worst face mask ever.
Full plastic cover with a hole over the mouth. Leather helmet improve some but still soft.
In high school my face mask became two small bars, helmet was the 1950 Notre Dame "Cross" helmet.
Brown leather with a black cross from front to back and side to side.
OK enough history. Six concussions, several "bell rung" hits DAILY. Back then, it was just part of the game.
Of the six knock outs, only two came from football. Two came playing baseball...catching, caught a bat on the head on an over swing. Playing center ran head first into "Monkey Bars" deep in right center full speed.
Feel off a car and once in the ring boxing.
I think I was saved from CTE by not boxing, or playing football beyond high school. Just a guess!
Maybe concussions at an early age have time to heal????
When MEN get bells rung, very little time to heal properly, or just way too much of an accumulation form childhood.
I'm 73, retired, semi sane and still active in work and at the gym.
Thank God I wasn't very big or very good. Ha!
As I grew, the equipment improved. I had one of the first/worst face mask ever.
Full plastic cover with a hole over the mouth. Leather helmet improve some but still soft.
In high school my face mask became two small bars, helmet was the 1950 Notre Dame "Cross" helmet.
Brown leather with a black cross from front to back and side to side.
OK enough history. Six concussions, several "bell rung" hits DAILY. Back then, it was just part of the game.
Of the six knock outs, only two came from football. Two came playing baseball...catching, caught a bat on the head on an over swing. Playing center ran head first into "Monkey Bars" deep in right center full speed.
Feel off a car and once in the ring boxing.
I think I was saved from CTE by not boxing, or playing football beyond high school. Just a guess!
Maybe concussions at an early age have time to heal????
When MEN get bells rung, very little time to heal properly, or just way too much of an accumulation form childhood.
I'm 73, retired, semi sane and still active in work and at the gym.
Thank God I wasn't very big or very good. Ha!
Tough one, sons career ended because of concussions . Don't know the answer, read 3 books on the subject, CTE is real, what other factors play a role in developing it, genes, steroids, drugs, alcohol, full blown hits, sub concussive hits, coming back to soon? Some like soup, ok, very debatable. Tests coming out in living players ie blood tests, tau proteins, pet scans, biomarkers. Who is responsible, do you want to know you have it? Who is liable?