Mythical State Champs (1950-1987)

[RoverNation05]

With the holidays and some time off coming up (plus the threat of more extended quarantine that needs time to get filled) I am getting started on a new project. Like I've done the Big School State champs series (which, for those loyal readers finishing 2011-2019 is still in the hopper, Central Dauphin 2011 and North Allegheny 2012 are written and ready to release after this years state finals and SJP 2013 is in the works) - one thing that fascinates me is the concept of mythical state champs in the pre-playoff era. One thing Ohio does nicely is right on their state website, they have all of the historical polls and state champs before they started their tournament in the 1970s. Right now, all of that history is just lost in Pennsylvania. Even without a lot of true champs, I think it's worth going back and documenting. I've looked at things like the Saylor Ratings lists, but I think they're worth expanding on. I love college football, and part of the fun in it's history is arguing over "claimed" national titles and deconstructing that era before the BCS/national championship games/the playoff. The same things exists in PA history. In the long run, I'd like to shop the project to outlets like PA Football News or PA Football History, but I've had good discourse on this board for a better part of the decade and wanted to crowd source some aspects of the project.

I've got a preliminary list of teams, but with some holes. Part of what I want to do is present cases for teams in years where multiple schools have a claim, so I don't need to just pick one at this point from any year. But here's my list - are there schools and teams that people on this board think are missing or should be included. This is mostly a run of the Saylor Rating, AP stories that used to run at the culmination of the high school season with all of the conference champs and undefeated teams throughout the state, polls that the Philadephia Inquirer, PIttsburgh Post Gazette, Harrisburg Patriot News, and the UPI and AP used to run (haphazardly it seems, through the era). But I'm sure there are holes (and years where I'm particularly flummoxed will have an additional question mark by them). Anyway, here's what I'm thinking - have at it gentlemen:

1950: Butler/Lower Merion/Bellwood-Antis
1951: Farrell/???
1952: Old Forge/Aliquippa/Upper Darby/Allentown/DuBois
1953: Har-Brack/Bellwood-Antis
1954: Bellwood-Antis/Brownsville/Williamsport/Clairton/??
1955: Aliquippa
1956: Jeannette
1957: Wilkinsburg
1958: Easton/Central Dauphin
1959: JP McCaskey/Charleroi/Easton
1960: Beaver Falls
1961: Monessen/Beaver Falls
1962: John Harris/Wilkes-Barre Meyers
1963: Neshaminy/Washington/Blakely/West Mifflin North
1964: Pittsburgh Central Catholic/Neshaminy/???
1965: John Harris/Uniontown
1966: John Harris
1967: John Harris/New Castle
1968: Easton/Latrobe
1969: Mount Carmel/John Harris
1970: Mount Lebanon
1971: Neshaminy/Kiski Area
1972: Gateway/Upper Merion
1973: State College
1974: Pennsbury
1975: New Castle/Upper St. Clair/???
1976: Penn Hills/Whitehall
1977: Penn Hills
1978: Penn Hills/CB West
1979: Penn Hills/Dieruff
1980: CB West
1981: Mount Lebanon
1982: North Allegheny/Cumberland Valley/Ridley/Erie Cathedral Prep
1983: Berwick
1984: CB West
1985: CB West/North Hills
1986: Gateway
1987: North Hills/CB West

 

[CAMoleskinner]

Rover -

A few years back Stalker worked up this project back to 1884 or 1886 or something (I think that was the first year school which was one of the privates in Philly -- Malvern Prep or Germantown Academy, was that school/schools playing then??).

A lot of great squads over the years (loved those John Harris or Harrisburg Tech/Harrisburg teams around 1919 and 1920 -- I think one school scored over 700 and gave up 0 playing a very aggressive schedule - maybe had some "Doughboys" on the club following The Great War - and as I recall one of those teams was PA's first "national champion" ). Easton had a few more back then too.

Then since you asked - Neshaminy actually had a run of stud clubs from 1960 though 1965 when they went 59-1-5 with 1965 certainly near the top of that pile.

Point: In '71 Saylor had Kiski Area edging Neshaminy .544 to .537 in his system (as I recall) while the AP and UPI split on which of those two teams was "state champ" (I believe Kiski was 12-0 to Neshaminy's 11-0 and that extra win didn't hurt the Cavs).

Anyway, somewhere I bet Stalk still has the list of teams he compiled which was very extensive covering the pre-playoff years back to the first years schools were playing.

 

[RoverNation05]

Rover -
Then since you asked - Neshaminy actually had a run of stud clubs from 1960 though 1965 when they went 59-1-5 with 1965 certainly near the top of that pile.

Point: In '71 Saylor had Kiski Area edging Neshaminy .544 to .537 in his system (as I recall) while the AP and UPI split on which of those two teams was "state champ" (I believe Kiski was 12-0 to Neshaminy's 11-0 and that extra win didn't hurt the Cavs).

Anyway, somewhere I bet Stalk still has the list of teams he compiled which was very extensive covering the pre-playoff years back to the first years schools were playing.

Here's where I have Neshaminy in polls I've seen in that 1960-65 run:
1960: #3 (the Beaver Falls team with Joe Namath seems like a pretty safe bet as the best team in PA from my early research)
1961: #9 (weird year - Beaver Falls is awesome again and blows out their schedule, but there are three undefeated teams in the WPIAL and they get out pointed by Monessen and Wilkinsburg and don't make the WPIAL championship game - which Monessen wins in a squaker)
1962: #4 (the first of George Chaump's great John Harris teams looks like #1)
1963: A million teams could claim this one - Neshaminy has as god an argument as any
1964: The only major team that is undefeated and untied is Pittsburgh Central Catholic, but the Pittsburgh Catholic League just wasn't that good. Neshaminy and Blakely are the other other major teams without a loss, but both have ties. Need to get into the narrative of the season
1965: #5 (Uniontown and John Harris both have undefeated all time great teams - one of the seasons most badly in need of a state championship game, would have been a classic)

1971 is definitely one of those either/or years. I've only started to dive in on the Neshaminy team, I haven't spent a ton of time with Kiski that year.

I appreciate the consistency of having a Saylor rating every year, but without the formula known to anybody but Dr. Saylor, it's sometimes tough to decipher. His public comments some years don't help matters either. It's definitely like crowning a college football champ with Bill Connolly's SP+ rather than on field results (which helps you gamble, but doesn't necessarily reward champions). There are some years it is screwy (like a two-loss John Harris team being his top ranked in 1963 or a Mount Lebanon that didn't go undefeated and didn't win the WPIAL as the best team in 1958) but it does give you a good gauge.

 

[Fletchster1]

@Skinner - Any chance Kiski beats your Skins in 1971?

 

[CAMoleskinner]

No way!!!!

Go 'Skins!!!

 

[Fletchster1]

No way!!!!

Go 'Skins!!!

Skins!

 

[Stalker]

Skins!

Back as can on the topic after completing this week's write ups. May need to shoot to FL for a few.

Rover -

A few years back Stalker worked up this project back to 1884 or 1886 or something (I think that was the first year school which was one of the privates in Philly -- Malvern Prep or Germantown Academy, was that school/schools playing then??).

A lot of great squads over the years (loved those John Harris or Harrisburg Tech/Harrisburg teams around 1919 and 1920 -- I think one school scored over 700 and gave up 0 playing a very aggressive schedule - maybe had some "Doughboys" on the club following The Great War - and as I recall one of those teams was PA's first "national champion" ). Easton had a few more back then too.

Then since you asked - Neshaminy actually had a run of stud clubs from 1960 though 1965 when they went 59-1-5 with 1965 certainly near the top of that pile.

Point: In '71 Saylor had Kiski Area edging Neshaminy .544 to .537 in his system (as I recall) while the AP and UPI split on which of those two teams was "state champ" (I believe Kiski was 12-0 to Neshaminy's 11-0 and that extra win didn't hurt the Cavs).

Anyway, somewhere I bet Stalk still has the list of teams he compiled which was very extensive covering the pre-playoff years back to the first years schools were playing.

Hello Counsellor. Back at you guys after write ups done. Roll Tribe.

 

[Relayer]

Is CB-West in the discussion for 1986? They did finish 9th in the USA Today rankings. Regardless, we missed out on what could have been some great state finals in that decade.

 

[SPEED&JUMP DR.]

Relayer-you are right-1986 was a good year. Many of the local papers/news outlets had Ridley #1 too. They had 3 future NFL players on that squad.

 

[RoverNation05]

Is CB-West in the discussion for 1986? They did finish 9th in the USA Today rankings. Regardless, we missed out on what could have been some great state finals in that decade.

I scrolled over CB West in my document (i haven’t started filling out data for them yet), but yes, the‘86 CB West team in the middle of the winning streak is on the list. That Gateway team finished #3 in the USA Today (quarterbacked by Terry Smith with junior Curtis Bray being their big star, though he wasn’t Gatorade’s National Player of the Year until the following season). Would have been a hell of a final.

 

[pcc64]

Here's where I have Neshaminy in polls I've seen in that 1960-65 run:
1960: #3 (the Beaver Falls team with Joe Namath seems like a pretty safe bet as the best team in PA from my early research)
1961: #9 (weird year - Beaver Falls is awesome again and blows out their schedule, but there are three undefeated teams in the WPIAL and they get out pointed by Monessen and Wilkinsburg and don't make the WPIAL championship game - which Monessen wins in a squaker)
1962: #4 (the first of George Chaump's great John Harris teams looks like #1)
1963: A million teams could claim this one - Neshaminy has as god an argument as any
1964: The only major team that is undefeated and untied is Pittsburgh Central Catholic, but the Pittsburgh Catholic League just wasn't that good. Neshaminy and Blakely are the other other major teams without a loss, but both have ties. Need to get into the narrative of the season
1965: #5 (Uniontown and John Harris both have undefeated all time great teams - one of the seasons most badly in need of a state championship game, would have been a classic)

1971 is definitely one of those either/or years. I've only started to dive in on the Neshaminy team, I haven't spent a ton of time with Kiski that year.

I appreciate the consistency of having a Saylor rating every year, but without the formula known to anybody but Dr. Saylor, it's sometimes tough to decipher. His public comments some years don't help matters either. It's definitely like crowning a college football champ with Bill Connolly's SP+ rather than on field results (which helps you gamble, but doesn't necessarily reward champions). There are some years it is screwy (like a two-loss John Harris team being his top ranked in 1963 or a Mount Lebanon that didn't go undefeated and didn't win the WPIAL as the best team in 1958) but it does give you a good gauge.

Regarding the 1964 PCC schedule : back In those days, Central also Played the top WPIAL teams like McKeesport, Aliquippa, New Castle etc. The WPIAL champion in 1964 was Aliquippa who was defeated by PCC.

 

[kitwor]

I think the 72 St James team would of destroyed Gateway or Merion. Bishop Kendrick would have beaten both as well easily in my opinion.

 

[RoverNation05]

I think the 72 St James team would of destroyed Gateway or Merion. Bishop Kendrick would have beaten both as well easily in my opinion.

Added. That's a year that I'm not totally happy with - that Gateway team was the undefeated WPIAL champs, but we're completely dominant and didn't have a crazy roster. Upper Merion is listed because that is one of the way ahead of its time passing attacks. I should have included the undefeated Pennsbury team too (who it looks like the Phily Inquirerer had as it's #1 team in the area over St. James - but there was also an effort to get a game between those two that fell short because the City Championship game was so late). Certainly weren't a lot of teams with better size on the offensive and defensive lines than that St. James squad, they're about as modern as they come in that regard.

 

[lilromeo]

Is CB-West in the discussion for 1986? They did finish 9th in the USA Today rankings. Regardless, we missed out on what could have been some great state finals in that decade.

Talking about 86 and 87 the McDevitt PCL champs those years were very highly regarded . Check them out.

 

[PowerKP]

RoverNation,

A few of us have been working diligently on such a project, and we have pretty thorough data from 1890-1949 that can be found at the links below. We'll be starting the 1950's next! (PS: Let me know if you have trouble accessing the links!)

https://pasportsboard.proboards.com/thread/249/mythical-state-football-champs-pa

https://pasportsboard.proboards.com/thread/256/1920s-scholastic-football-champs-mythical?page=1

https://pasportsboard.proboards.com/thread/306/1930s-scholastic-football-champs-mythical?page=1

https://pasportsboard.proboards.com/thread/1026/1940s-scholastic-football-champs-mythical?page=1

Nick Raines

Nick Raines is on Facebook. Join Facebook to connect with Nick Raines and others you may know. Facebook gives people the power to share and makes the world more open and connected.

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[PowerKP]

PS: You can also access the info on Facebook @Hitman's PA H.S. Football History Huddle! (It won't let me post the actual Facebook link, but you can do a search if you have an account there)

PPS: We'll be trying to reach Twitter sometime soon as well!

 

[paul from philly]

I thought Berwick had a string in the mid to late 70s. At least 2. No?

 

[Stalker]

I thought Berwick had a string in the mid to late 70s. At least 2. No?

Paul....
Berwick, 70 thru 79; 4-6, 7-3, 10-1, 8-3, 2-9, 9-3, 5-5-1, 12-1, 10-1-1, 9-3.

 

[paul from philly]

Paul....
Berwick, 70 thru 79; 4-6, 7-3, 10-1, 8-3, 2-9, 9-3, 5-5-1, 12-1, 10-1-1, 9-3.

You do good work Stalker! Thanks. I went to school with a guy from Berwick and all he could talk about were the Berwick Bulldogs!